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The biggest thing that I can see that needs to be done would be shutting down “news” organizations like FOX News, OAN, and Newsmax. Also, breaking up online movements like Q where blatant misinformation is spread as if it’s proven truth.
Now, HOW you do that without massive first amendment violations, I don’t know. You would also need to be careful how it’s structured because that could easily be used to shut down anyone left of center should a Republicans take the presidency/control Congress.
Gotta look at that right wing radio cabal also
Since that is over actual airwaves, reinstating the Fairness Doctrine would fix that very fast.
Extend FCC regs and licensing to cable and streaming services while we’re at it.
Would be unconstitutional. That’s private property, not a limited public good, like radio spectrum.
You’d have to nationalize the US communications grid including private satellites. I’d actually not mind that if the US government didn’t have such a terrible record on privacy invasion to start with.
You’d have to nationalize the US communications grid including private satellites
No you don’t. Legislation to extend regulations to content doesn’t require ownership of the equipment. The FCC doesn’t own radio towers. It will absolutely require a constitutional amendment to clarify first amendment boundaries and protections, but we’re already talking about pie in the sky as is.
Edit: On the aside, I’d rather deal with the “privacy war” than the wild west insanity that is fox news, OAN, et al.
Education and critical thinking skills. Which is why they want to defund public schools so all children can be indoctrinated in “Christian” private schools.
you do it with massive funding to public education for generations.
which is why massive first amendment violations are more likely
Shutting down Facebook would be huge. It’s a cesspool of propaganda.
A lot of social media and sites with algorithms are problematic. They tend to steer people to content that’s more and more radical in nature. You start out with innocuous stuff, but the more extreme the content, the bigger the reaction, and thus the algorithm will guide the user to more of that content. (Ryan George illustrated this perfectly: https://youtu.be/x1aZEz8BQiU?si=g3xw0tbDV-4vSyCH )
Stop mentioning Hillary. She’s old news. She’s as relevant to 2023 politics as hunter biden.
Came in here to say basically this. The fact that they used Hilary as the image for this articles headline killed any credibility instantly. She is not relevant and hasn’t been since she lost. There is zero positives to bringing her up. Unless you want an example of exactly how not to run a presidential campaign.
I just clicked because I wanted to be sure she wasn’t running in 2024
What? You mean to say it isn’t her turn?
Let’s get someone under 50.
Best I can do is 69.
The thumbnail with her in it made sure I wasn’t going to open the article. Her bullshit backroom campaign from the primaries through the election gave Trump the Oval Office.
I saw the link was from Salon.com… as relevant to politics as TMZ is to climate change.
Yes let’s all continue ignoring the people who were warned us about the dangers of a Trump presidency.
Surely she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Also she is not wrong.
But you know fake internet points on a reddit knock off matter more, apparently.
Literally everyone with half a fucking brain knew Trump would be terrible. The fact that she was so unlikable and ran such a bad campaign that people didn’t bother to show up and vote for her tells you everything. She needs to shut the fuck up, and disappear.
The mere sight of her face makes me not want to vote Democrat. I never was one, and her attempts to shame me into voting for her only made me think about that more. The “big tent party” needs more than fear mongering to win elections. I don’t really care for Joe Biden either, but I didn’t feel ill voting for him. He didn’t tell me I owed it to him, that I had to vote for him or I was deplorable. He at least said a few things that made me want to vote.
I’m not saying she’s wrong. I’m saying she’s irrelevant at this point. if for some reason you don’t like this social network, you should go back to Reddit
Back in the day, their grandparents happily filled public swimming pools with cement rather than accept allowing ‘others’ to have a good time.
Defunding and privatization of public schools also started for similar reasons
I have a hard time taking this article seriously. I don’t understand why it feels the need to tout HC so fiercely. I guess she was right about “deplorables” but everyone else was correct in pegging her as an out of touch elite. The DNC’s inability to back candidates that can help working class people continually emboldens right-wing extremists. It’s not hard to see how the Dems’ center-right stances open the door for far-right reactions. Yes, they are deplorables but HC is not one of the good guys.
Republicans are programmed due to their echo chambers. People who don’t even follow the news have been shown to be more informed than Republicans who watch and listen to conservative media.
Just curious, do you think the programming due to echo chambers applies to Democrats as well?
I think it’s pretty obvious one side is operating totally outside of reality where the other is not. Are democrats peddling stolen election lies and denying the existence of COVID?
There is a definite difference in magnitude / severity but there is a similarity in partisan thinking.
Many on “the left” still believe Trump coordinated with Russia in his election for example. And that Russia was instrumental in that win.
And I keep seeing"the left" talking punishing people for protected speech, etc.
Pretending one side is “virtuous” and fighting the “pure evil” of the other side is an attribute of both sides.
Partisanship doesn’t like nuance. As indicated by all the down votes I’m about to receive.
Many on “the left” still believe Trump coordinated with Russia in his election for example. And that Russia was instrumental in that win
Anyone who actually read the Mueller report knows this to be true
The report which concludes on page 173 that
Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities.
?
That doesn’t mean what you think it means.
You seem to think it means that the coordination or conspiracy didn’t happen, but what it actually means is that Bill Barr prohibited the investigators from plainly stating the conclusion on the bullshit argument that it was Congress’ job to connect the obvious dots themselves, which the Republicans in charge of it promptly refused to do.
Many on “the left” still believe [things that are, in fact, actually true]
No shit, Sherlock! But how is that a problem?
Many on “the left” still believe Trump coordinated with Russia in his election for example. And that Russia was instrumental in that win.
2020:
The Senate Intelligence Committee has released the final report from its bipartisan investigation into Moscow’s interference in the 2016 U.S. election.
The committee spent more than three years working on it, investigating Russia’s interference, as you said, in the 2016 election. They reviewed more than a million documents, documents that were provided by U.S. spy agencies as well as documents that were provided by witnesses. They also interviewed witnesses - hundreds of them, including a lot of familiar names - Donald Trump Jr., former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort but also former Obama administration officials.
And all of that digging has gone into this report, and the committee concludes that Russia conducted a sophisticated and aggressive campaign to influence the U.S. election to help Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton and that folks on Team Trump were more than happy to accept help from the Russians. But what’s really important about that conclusion is that it is a bipartisan one. It is endorsed by both Democrats and Republicans.
This report is, to a large extent, something that reaches the same conclusion that Mueller did on the question of Russia’s interference. And the committee didn’t draw a conclusion on whether the Trump campaign conspired or colluded with Russia. What the committee did instead was lay out the facts that they found and then kind of leave it to the reader to make up their own mind. Some committee Republicans, in an annex to the report, declared that there was no evidence that the Trump campaign colluded. Democratic members, in contrast, called Russia’s actions and the Trump team’s openness to them, quote, “one of the single most grave counterintelligence threats in modern American history.”
(Emphasis mine)
It’s not that far-fetched at all to think the Trump campaign coordinated with Russia in 2016.
It’s not that far-fetched at all to think that the Trump campaign coordinated with Russia in 2016.
Yet it’s not what the investigation into that question concluded.
Manafort has literally openly admitted to it. It’s also in the 2020 Senate report you didn’t read
Democrats are just denying that neoliberalism and capitalism are destroying the planet.
The democratic party is a coalition party ranging from the neoliberals all the way to anarchists and everything in between. In general, the people that are nominated are controlled by the party establishment but the people that vote range from a variety of left biases. After all, the Democrats are the only decent conservative party left in this country.
The Democrat’s establishment is what matters in these conversations, and yes they refuse to acknowledge that the root causes of climate change is late stage neoliberal capitalism.
What exactly is a solution to that?
They don’t deny it but exaggerate how much they care in order to get that sweet, sweet social credit - much like conservatives and “traditional values”. The ones that play this game the best are the ones that end up in power.
I’m not saying anything negative Democrats or doing any comparison on idiologies. I feel like echo chambers keeping politics in their own little bubbles is bad for everyone. I just wanted your opinion on echo chambers being applicable to both sides. Don’t know why I can’t ask a question without getting down voted.
It’s because the way you are posing questions is disingenuous. It’s an article about issues with the Republican party and voter base and you turn around and go, “well, yeah, but there are two sides so Democrats must be the same right???” It’s like you can’t even discuss the topic at hand, you have to make it a “both sides” thing.
But sure, I’ll bite. Do Democrats have huge numbers of talk radio stations, shitty news stations, and grifting facebook pages all pushing the same bullshit? Because Republicans do, and they all for some reason talk about the same shit in the same way. You can hem and haw about how MSNBC could be more “neutral,” but it doesn’t hold a candle to the ridiculousness of Fox News. And if it did, don’t worry, we’ve still got OANN to talk about.
Democratic echo chambers amount to “we don’t like you saying racial slurs in our forum,” where Republican echo chambers amount to “don’t you dare post that scientific study or countermand the will of the Great Leader.” They aren’t the same, no matter how desperate you are to equivocate.
I can see your point about my comment being disingenuous. You are correct I’m not staying on the topic of the article and I’m instead commenting on a comment instead. Again my question was meant to discuss echo chambers in general.
What do you feel are the problematic issues stemming from the “dem echo chamber”?
The idea that all Republicans are literal Nazis who can’t be worked with.
It sure would be easier to counter that idea if the republicans’ leading contender for speaker of the house wasn’t someone who described himself as “David Duke without the baggage”. I guess technically the former grand wizard of the KKK wasn’t a literal nazi, but that doesn’t seem like a hair worth splitting.
Oooh, can I play?
Tribalism is the real problem and the echo chambers are where it’s fostered. The inability to see a fact, event, or report clearly without blue-tinted glasses can stand in the way of progress.
Of course a segment of the right has some weird issues with accepting science as fact – or facts as facts. It wasn’t long ago this fringe population was ignored and isolated while mainstream middle America politics existed (relatively) out in the open. The echo chamber everyone is living in right now is this - social media. This is not reality. This is not you and I sitting down and having a face-to-face chat about our lives and experiences and how we can agree and disagree on things regardless of who we’ve voted for.
Our extreme political polarization exists because of the internet. The internet is not where we’re going to solve this problem. Just because we generally all agree that “the left” is
rightcorrect, arguing over facts and truths with people who’s primary objective is to reject them is not going to foster progress. Arguing over what laws should exist in one state and not another and if the Constitution even allows for such laws is not going to be resolved in a Xweet. You may win the battle but the war will certainly carry on without you.The “dem echo chamber” is made up of virtue signaling propaganda (as is MAGA). It’s selling rally towels outside a football game and people are just there to have a good time cheering along for their team. The teams are dressed in red and blue but the QB is still rich and the D-Line is still poor.
I also feel like the left’s use of social media to call out the stupidity and malice and atrocities of the right strengthens the right’s defenses and their numbers. What in the past may have been a small story in a local paper now can become an international headline within minutes. I generally think this is a good thing but there’s a lot of overly sensitive people who feel like the internet is reality and they can be susceptible to intimidation and bullying. As the echo bounces around the left’s chamber, the right aren’t getting weaker, they’re getting stronger.
“Facts” aside, I see very little difference in the echo chambers and tribalism.
Which brings us to the right’s issue with facts. To be brief, there was a study that showed brains of conservatives are actually a little different than those of liberals. Conservatives are more protective. They’re afraid of change and threats to their families and communities. They have real not-invalid concerns. So, when presented with actual facts and science that attack their stance and weaken their protections, they’re going to fight harder, even is that means using “fantasy” as their reality to “prove” you wrong.
The problem with these echo chambers and tribalism is that people are locking themselves in and forgoing real world conversations that involve vulnerability, humility, and negotiations. No one is interested in taking the time to give the other person a chance to step outside their echo chamber. All they want is to be right and to convince the other they’re wrong.
Now, to be fair, I do not have an answer as to what to do about literal textbook definition fascists trying to take control of our government. If I were a more well educated about WWII, I might have an idea about what not to do.
People have called me out in the past for being an idealist and that I’m not considering the reality of the situation. I feel pretty strongly that the issue is people not stepping outside their echo chambers to take a look at the reality they actually have control over. I also feel very strongly that Ranked Choice Voting would quell the vast majority of the polarization found in politics and social issues.
It’s not about “dem echo chambers” to me it’s about echo chambers in general. The problems I think they cause are more devision, less ability to reflect on held beliefs, and make it difficult to have conversations or debates with those who old different beliefs. Again this is specific to echo chambers in general.
My brain has stopped functioning since this AM 🤣 but that’s fair re: “echo chambers in general” - just the “both sides” rhetoric and the specific questions about “dem echo chambers” had me wondering what specific problematic issues were stemming from that. I was gonna be specific but I can no longer find/follow the convo - Oy old age ig - thank for taking the time to answer.
I think anyone can be in an eco chamber regardless of your political beliefs. I think it is less likely for Democrats as their news isn’t just a single channel that has been proven to not be news.
Right wing news is from the limited sources it is because those are the only sources that will align with their biases. Most other news sources align with center-left or farther left biases depending on the source. This is very much about the market - the largest population centers tend to lean left so there’s a bigger market, it comes down to whether an outlet is trying to get a smaller slice of a much larger pie or a bigger slice of the smaller pie that right wing outlets share - it’s a lot easier to get a big market share when there’s less competition.
For an example of the sorts of biases you see - let’s look at hate crimes against Asians resulting from COVID.
Left leaning sources would upsell that increase in hate crimes, but weirdly avoid using any specific examples or saying anything about who was perpetuating them other than some vague statements about “white supremacy” and blaming the increase on Trump calling COVID a Chinese virus. Well, until one day when all the talk about it started using one specific example of a white guy hate criming an Asian, but that was a couple months after they’d started talking about the topic.
Right leaning sources would ignore or avoid the topic until they couldn’t get away with that any more. Then they focused on who was doing said hate crimes, because by the numbers it was mostly black-on-Asian hate crime, and blacks being criminals is aligned with their biases. This is the same reason why left leaning sources tried to avoid who was doing the hate crimes against Asians until they had a prominent example with a white perp - it’s hard to sell black folks acting in the name of white supremacy, and blacks being criminals is not aligned with their biases.
If only people knew the truth! The issue is: That’s not how information actually works. Despite what you are told, social media and the internet often increase the range of views to which people are exposed. Algorithms are less likely to create a echo chamber for you than living in a neighborhood surrounded by Republicans with limited media.
So what are echo chambers, really? They are epistemic bubbles, where other voices are not heard; in echo chambers, other voices are actively undermined. When they get contrary information that doesn’t match their preconceived beliefs, they dismiss it. It confirms what they already believe—they’re wrong.
While privately owned social media companies can influence us, they’re hardly the only things that do. Our core ideologies and values are determined by everything from where we grew up to whom we love, to the actual impact of politics on our lives. Fixing Facebook wouldn’t solve the problem of many echo chambers—your family’s opinions, your friend’s bigoted talking points—even if it’s a good idea.
In a way, those who worry about echo chambers are too hopeful. Many voters really do want Trump, Brexit, and other things that liberals abhor. A lot of people do not care, deep down, about democracy. Better information might not be a panacea for that, even if it would slow down a conspiracy theory like QAnon.
That is the main difference of the two sides, Liberals get a multifaceted message with various perspectives and they latch onto those messages that most resonate with them. Conservatives on the other hand only get one perspective and thus rarely hear opposing views in context.
Which side you land on largely has to do with your personal environment.
The research doesn’t indicate this. Everyone is prone to echo chambers, but left leaning folks tend to have more diversified news sources, which is the balance to negate echo chambers.
The left have more diversified news sources because the country has generally been left-leaning in recent generations. It wasn’t “left” when ABC, CBS, NBC were the only news outlets; it was very much “middle-America”.
Not until Fox News came along did conservatives have a real alternative outlet. Still, most news outlets are left / left-middle to represent most people. If there’s five outlets with similar perspectives, a segment of the population will be divided among them. If there’s only one or two conservative outlets, there isn’t much diversity for conservatives to get their news from.
So, while I agree with you about diversified media, I’d argue the echo chamber is getting much stronger.
Ultimately, these news outlets report to their advertisers and corporate overlords. They control what news is being broadcast now that we have algorithms telling them what people want to watch. Back when the big three were all there were to report the news, they pretty much only had to report to the public trust and their own integrity. Today’s media works in both directions at near-lightspeed.
Regardless of political ideology, is the general population choosing to watch news reports that inform them or that enforce their existing feelings? Are you the kind of person who’s buying groceries because they’re good for you and good for the environment or are you the kind of person who buys cheaper comfort food? Perhaps more importantly, who’s telling you what’s good for you and what’s bad for you?
Of course it does
The Internet has made people flock to places where people think like them.
Additionally, FaceBook, Google News, and many other sites intentionally show users material that it knows they will interact with to trigger dopamine releases. It’s addictive by design.
Social media has far less influence than ones family, their local community, and their religion or lack there of.
I don’t understand why the DNC (as in the actual organization, not Democrat voters) is so god damn obsessed with Hillary. It feels like they would crown her queen if they could. Makes me wonder if she has some dirt on key people in their organization or something.
Are they obsessed, or is it just that she’s not campaigning for anything and so she’s ripe for the media junket?
I have a hard time taking this article seriously.
Not a surprise given it’s from Salon. It’s a shitrag. I haven’t read this article but I’ve noticed a pattern based on other articles being posted around Lemmy. A third is rabble-rousing and pandering to the virtue signaling far left. Half is adjacent filler content. The rest is a valid meaningful point worthy of real discussion and has little to do with the headline.
Just noting the comment below about “Republicans are programmed due to their echo chambers”… Dude, if you believe that’s a republican-only phenomenon, you have been programmed by the echo chamber you follow. I’d love a source for “people who don’t follow the news have been shown to be more informed than republicans”.
Speaking of “echo chambers”, that full of shit comment is getting upvoted. You might find yourself currently inside the echo chamber.As a liberal progressive, I’m worried that so many of us are falling prey to the tactics that have worked for conservative media for decades. I thought we were supposed to be more intelligent. It seems like tribalism really is all that matters - intellectualism be damned.
I’d love a source for “people who don’t follow the news have been shown to be more informed than republicans”.
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Let the Trump cult be. They are a minority of a minority.
Focus on fielding quality candidates that are not Hillary-Clinton-esk and Maga will fade away. Focus on getting out the vote. Focus on issues that resonate with the center right to center left.
It’s not that hard of a concept, but it it doesn’t sell ad clicks. It doesn’t drive engagement either. So we get to wring our hands and are subject to Salon articles for the next 13 months instead.
I’m not saying that you’re wrong. But I am saying that history doesn’t agree with your approach.
If you’re in an enclosed space with a crazy person who’s flailing around with a knife, " leave them alone and let’s focus on ourselves" isn’t going to mitigate the damage.
You cannot be tolerant to intolerance if you want a tolerant society.
I totally agree. My comment misses that point.
Popper’s paradox of intolerance was written nearly a century ago. Your definition and his definition of tolerance are not the same.
In fact, if you actually read his works instead of a wikipedia article headline(lol), then you will find YOU are the one he was criticizing. Popper believed the intolerant were those who would rely on censorship rather than debate. Literally, tolerance of debate.
As you can imagine, I find the irony of your comment hilarious.
My definition? What is my definition of tolerance?
Nearly a century ago? You’re a math genius, by your standards I’m turning 100 already.
The “open society” book was written with fascism as a background and as a reaction to it. But, of course - if only we had debated a bit more with fascists…
Go back to watching Peterson clips.
Triggered by the truth?
Yeah, it was written with fascists in mind. That’s why it applies to your fascist rhetoric, rofl
Obviously they need to Pokémon Go to therapy.
Trying to get to the root of the ideology is almost impossible.
Asking why they have those opinions is futile they have no opinions past the surface layer.
In fact bringing up contradictory facts is an attack, its crazy.
Everyone deserves a chance at redemption for us to heal as a country we have to leave the door open for them to cone back in… its going to be very difficult if they are choosing willful ignorance.
