As a Linux user this and posts like this piss me off. Linux is NOT and WILL NEVER be a replacement for any other operating system (except maybe Minix). By implying Linux is the same or similar enough to Windows you bring in Windows users who except everything to be the same. Fundamentally thats not a good thing for anyone, Windows users get confused and maintainers are encouraged not to deviate from Windows even in ways that make the OS better (for example KDE not going all in on tiling to appease Windows users). In my option Linux shouldn’t be recommended to anyone. Linux software maintainers should focus on the core Linux userbase and people who want their OS to look and function exactly like Windows/MacOS should just use Windows or MacOS.
I just did my install of Linux Mint. I have a number of complaints that are really the fault of Microsoft, other things tripping me up that are just about me learning differences; BUT I still find there’s some things Linux could take as lessons.
One of them is keyboard shortcuts. I learned Windows shortcuts because they followed intuitive logic, like what role the “Tab” key has and what the Shift key is doing to adjust its action. Linux apps often make up their own logic around this, which even if it made sense internally, doesn’t work with apps like Firefox which are still using Ctrl+Tab to switch tabs, possibly to keep Windows parity. Then, since Linux is supposed to be built to customize, if I try changing the terminal to switch tabs using Ctrl+Tab…it just doesn’t let you; pretends you didn’t press anything. Stock boot of Linux Mint 22.
You’re right that they shouldn’t be changing just for aping the dominating competitor; that’s how we unfortunately got Chromium supremacy. I still think there’s gentle UX considerations they could handle more often though. Basically the type of thing decided in board rooms that engineers would lose interest in.
This is…kind of stupid? There’s such a plethora of options in the Linux space for desktop environments, workflow customizations, configurability, etc. nothing is locked down by taking a Windows-style approach to a DE. Instead it follows a tried philosophy that’s only really been hampered by Microsoft’s decision to funnel users into an frustrating hole that removes the choice to disable or modify features you don’t like. KDE in particular has always been a Windows-style DE, and it’s currently one of the best options for modern features and extensive customizability. Hyprland is literally designed for linux enthusiasts. Gnome is the Mac analog, Xfce is your light-weight but functional, etc.
You’re upset because people are looking for more options? That’s bizarre. I came from Windows, but I guarantee my setup is different than someone else who comes from Windows because that’s the flexibility that’s offered. No one coming from Windows wants it to be exactly like Windows, they just want to be able to use their computer in a way that allows them to work, to play games, to watch media, etc. It’s a computer. It’s your computer. It should be able to do what you want.
Thats absolutely untrue, I see people complain all the time “Linux doesn’t look exactly like Windows therefore its not polished” or “Linux doesnt support every Windows app therefore its not ready”. When Linux users keep saying “Linux is a Windows replacement” or even implying it by suggesting it as an alternative to Windows 11 it creates expectations that can never be met. In addition im frustrated not because Windows users demand more options but because they demand less options. They demand one distribution to be “the Linux OS”, one singular desktop, and one way of doing things. Fundamentally when Windows users come in expecting Windows they have a Windows mindset.
Ah, my bad. I think I misunderstood your point and took you to be gatekeeping rather than just attempting to defend against misinformation or poor comparisons.
You’re right, it’s not a Windows replacement. It shouldn’t be expected that it’s analogous to Windows. My previous statement was coming from the expectation that people moving from Windows to Linux as their primary OS of choice was that they were explicitly looking for the advantages offered by it, rather than simply expecting to get away from Microsoft while needing to adjust to nothing new.
Ideally new Linux users would accept that things are different and we are starting to see it. Tiling window managers are gaining popularity especially with the announcement of the first true tiling (or rather dynamic) desktop environment (Cosmic). I think it would also be helpful if Linux users explained why things are different, sometimes its a lack of support (HDR, VRR, VR, etc) but sometimes like with anticheat there are good reasons for the absence. In addition the problem is that a significant amount of people want a “non-microsoft windows”. The solution is simple, people should view Linux in a way like MacOS (some windows apps don’t run but it has plenty of exclusive apps that don’t run on Windows).
To the Kwin maintainer, I can see why tiling isn’t a bigger deal. It’s not exactly about copying Windows; it’s more about not confusing most users. We already see tiling features, I’m sure they will figure out (1) more powerful features or (2) a way for other people to build off what they have. Let them cook.
I do agree that Linux will never be a Windows clone. There’s no purpose in copying decades worth of bad decisions. Windows isn’t great, it’s just always compatible with hardware.
How exactly is tiling confusing? If people were willing to accept that Linux functions differently then tiling can became just another thing to learn. Its objectivity more efficient then stacking so why not?
What if on the first boot the tiling could be explained by a welcome app (kinda like what KDE has), it would explain all of the shortcuts and then you could bring up all of the shortcuts with a simple shortcut. I personally use Sway and I think i3 based WMs are better, I believe on pretty much all i3 based WMs its as simple as super + r for resizing mode and esc to leave.
I have a lot of respect for Sway and wlroots developers. They contributed heavily to the desktop Linux ecosystem. However, if you need to explain that much at first boot; you may overload some users. I’m sure tiling in Plasma will get better as they splify configuration and figure out better defaults.
Well said. Then there is the entire ecosystem of programs and apps for which there is no real ability to install on Linux (and for which tools like Wine will either be buggy or even nonfunctional), and whose absence will just piss users off.
As much as I love Linux and BSD, it is really only for people who are either mentally geared to shift off of Windows or whose minimal needs won’t notice the difference; it is not a drop-in replacement for Windows.
For example, my octogenarian father has exactly such minimal needs except for one program: Quicken. Any bugs or issues running that as an installed desktop program on Linux would have him enraged and throwing the PC out the window. So he is still on Windows, and I am keeping my eyes open on how to properly neuter/excise Copilot once it drops.
As a Linux user this and posts like this piss me off. Linux is NOT and WILL NEVER be a replacement for any other operating system (except maybe Minix). By implying Linux is the same or similar enough to Windows you bring in Windows users who except everything to be the same. Fundamentally thats not a good thing for anyone, Windows users get confused and maintainers are encouraged not to deviate from Windows even in ways that make the OS better (for example KDE not going all in on tiling to appease Windows users). In my option Linux shouldn’t be recommended to anyone. Linux software maintainers should focus on the core Linux userbase and people who want their OS to look and function exactly like Windows/MacOS should just use Windows or MacOS.
I just did my install of Linux Mint. I have a number of complaints that are really the fault of Microsoft, other things tripping me up that are just about me learning differences; BUT I still find there’s some things Linux could take as lessons.
One of them is keyboard shortcuts. I learned Windows shortcuts because they followed intuitive logic, like what role the “Tab” key has and what the Shift key is doing to adjust its action. Linux apps often make up their own logic around this, which even if it made sense internally, doesn’t work with apps like Firefox which are still using Ctrl+Tab to switch tabs, possibly to keep Windows parity. Then, since Linux is supposed to be built to customize, if I try changing the terminal to switch tabs using Ctrl+Tab…it just doesn’t let you; pretends you didn’t press anything. Stock boot of Linux Mint 22.
You’re right that they shouldn’t be changing just for aping the dominating competitor; that’s how we unfortunately got Chromium supremacy. I still think there’s gentle UX considerations they could handle more often though. Basically the type of thing decided in board rooms that engineers would lose interest in.
This is…kind of stupid? There’s such a plethora of options in the Linux space for desktop environments, workflow customizations, configurability, etc. nothing is locked down by taking a Windows-style approach to a DE. Instead it follows a tried philosophy that’s only really been hampered by Microsoft’s decision to funnel users into an frustrating hole that removes the choice to disable or modify features you don’t like. KDE in particular has always been a Windows-style DE, and it’s currently one of the best options for modern features and extensive customizability. Hyprland is literally designed for linux enthusiasts. Gnome is the Mac analog, Xfce is your light-weight but functional, etc.
You’re upset because people are looking for more options? That’s bizarre. I came from Windows, but I guarantee my setup is different than someone else who comes from Windows because that’s the flexibility that’s offered. No one coming from Windows wants it to be exactly like Windows, they just want to be able to use their computer in a way that allows them to work, to play games, to watch media, etc. It’s a computer. It’s your computer. It should be able to do what you want.
Thats absolutely untrue, I see people complain all the time “Linux doesn’t look exactly like Windows therefore its not polished” or “Linux doesnt support every Windows app therefore its not ready”. When Linux users keep saying “Linux is a Windows replacement” or even implying it by suggesting it as an alternative to Windows 11 it creates expectations that can never be met. In addition im frustrated not because Windows users demand more options but because they demand less options. They demand one distribution to be “the Linux OS”, one singular desktop, and one way of doing things. Fundamentally when Windows users come in expecting Windows they have a Windows mindset.
Ah, my bad. I think I misunderstood your point and took you to be gatekeeping rather than just attempting to defend against misinformation or poor comparisons.
You’re right, it’s not a Windows replacement. It shouldn’t be expected that it’s analogous to Windows. My previous statement was coming from the expectation that people moving from Windows to Linux as their primary OS of choice was that they were explicitly looking for the advantages offered by it, rather than simply expecting to get away from Microsoft while needing to adjust to nothing new.
Ideally new Linux users would accept that things are different and we are starting to see it. Tiling window managers are gaining popularity especially with the announcement of the first true tiling (or rather dynamic) desktop environment (Cosmic). I think it would also be helpful if Linux users explained why things are different, sometimes its a lack of support (HDR, VRR, VR, etc) but sometimes like with anticheat there are good reasons for the absence. In addition the problem is that a significant amount of people want a “non-microsoft windows”. The solution is simple, people should view Linux in a way like MacOS (some windows apps don’t run but it has plenty of exclusive apps that don’t run on Windows).
To the Kwin maintainer, I can see why tiling isn’t a bigger deal. It’s not exactly about copying Windows; it’s more about not confusing most users. We already see tiling features, I’m sure they will figure out (1) more powerful features or (2) a way for other people to build off what they have. Let them cook.
I do agree that Linux will never be a Windows clone. There’s no purpose in copying decades worth of bad decisions. Windows isn’t great, it’s just always compatible with hardware.
How exactly is tiling confusing? If people were willing to accept that Linux functions differently then tiling can became just another thing to learn. Its objectivity more efficient then stacking so why not?
If the tiling is automatic and the users dont know how to change the size of the window manually (if that window manager allows that).
What if on the first boot the tiling could be explained by a welcome app (kinda like what KDE has), it would explain all of the shortcuts and then you could bring up all of the shortcuts with a simple shortcut. I personally use Sway and I think i3 based WMs are better, I believe on pretty much all i3 based WMs its as simple as super + r for resizing mode and esc to leave.
I have a lot of respect for Sway and wlroots developers. They contributed heavily to the desktop Linux ecosystem. However, if you need to explain that much at first boot; you may overload some users. I’m sure tiling in Plasma will get better as they splify configuration and figure out better defaults.
Well said. Then there is the entire ecosystem of programs and apps for which there is no real ability to install on Linux (and for which tools like Wine will either be buggy or even nonfunctional), and whose absence will just piss users off.
As much as I love Linux and BSD, it is really only for people who are either mentally geared to shift off of Windows or whose minimal needs won’t notice the difference; it is not a drop-in replacement for Windows.
For example, my octogenarian father has exactly such minimal needs except for one program: Quicken. Any bugs or issues running that as an installed desktop program on Linux would have him enraged and throwing the PC out the window. So he is still on Windows, and I am keeping my eyes open on how to properly neuter/excise Copilot once it drops.