You just voting is not preventing the last step happen is my point.
It quite literally is, unless you think thereās no difference between who wins in this election, in which case I would prefer you say it and save us all the time.
Preventing something from happening in an immediate sense is still preventing it from happening, even if it doesnāt solve the long-term problems leading to it. Patching up a hole in oneās gut may not solve the autoimmune disorder thatās killing you, but itāll prevent you from dying in a more immediate sense.
If people put all the effort you put into thinking and talking about voting to doing direct action, it will probably be better.
ā¦ all the effort we put into thinking and talking about voting?
Most people in this country donāt even bother to vote regularly. Those that do often put no more effort into their vote than a day at the polling station based on a few caught glimpses of the political realities of this country.
What level of effort is that going to translate into direct action? Youāre looking at people entered into a 100-meter sprint, nearly half of whom decided to drop out before even beginning, with many of those whoāve finished are bitching about how long it was, and saying āIf they put that effort into an ultramarathon, THEN we would really be getting somewhere!ā
But most voters will go āoh well, we triedā and let fascists do fascist things which is the exact things that has been happening for the past 50 years, which is why youāre at the point of voting for a fascist & genocide or just voting for genocide.
Is it your opinion that we are more fascist now than we were 50 years ago, then? Or 100 years ago?
Just Buying time is only effective is you actually do something with the time you buy.
Buying time give the potential to do something with the time bought. Not buying time doesnāt magic into existence extra options; not buying time only reduces your options.
Iām not saying to hasten fascism.
Really? Because I would think that a literal fascist and his cronies being put into executive power might hasten fascism a tiny bit.
I said put all the effort you put into voting into doing direct action, which is the only thing actually stopping fascism. The figurehead above doesnāt matter.
So you do think that thereās no difference in who wins the election, and this whole conversation is pointless?
Genuinely curious, because I see you using this narrative a lot. What are you planning to do after the election to end the genocide? You seem to balk at direct action and talk a lot about voting which is fine, but voting takes 5 minutes and we watched Kamala backtrack on all of her progressive policies and muzzled Walzā progressive nature. What are you going to do after the election?
As mentioned, Iām not even whole enough to walk more than a few blocks, and I live self-employed and under the poverty line. All I can do is donate when I can and speak to those close to me. I write my reps, but thatās pretty in-line with representative democracy, and I get the feeling that youāre looking for non-voting action outside of the norm. Iāve notably reddened my social circle, but thatās all I can claim.
I miss being able to march. But I have neither the physical nor emotional fortitude for that anymore.
You seem to balk at direct action
I donāt balk at direct action. I decry the idea that itās a replacement for voting. Direct action is important. Voting in certain elections is, likewise, important. Dedication to direct action does not and should not preclude taking one day out of the year, or less if you live in a state with good mail-in voting laws, for harm reduction, especially when that harm is at an exceptionally bad precipice point. Nor does voting preclude direct action.
Weāve gone back and forth with each other in the past about voting, but I understand why itās so prominent for you now. Iām of the belief that itās the easiest and least effective method of change, so itās been frustrating to seemingly see no real plan to put on the pressure folks are telling us to wait for.
It is the easiest and least effective, on its own. But its the least effective in large part because it is an action taken only one or two days out of the year. Each of those days are a significant junction from which massive changes are possibly. Often bad ones, which is why itās all the more important to use those one or two days.
Direct action is food and water, but voting is medicine. Medicine wonāt save you without direct action, but refusing medicine when ill will ensure that direct action does that much less in keeping you alive. Or ensure that the problem kills you outright before you can get your body the necessary nutrition to sustain itself.
Are US troops involved there? Because one candidate clearly says that Biden is not doing enough to help Israel.
Israel currently is led by a similar fascist with criminal record to trump, that once he loses his power he will go to jail. He is using attack on October 7 as an excuse to get rid of Palestine.
And we have seen that no one can really stop Israel. Do you think Biden wouldnāt prefer that the conflict would be over (and Israel wouldnāt be stirring new shit) and not distract from the war in Ukraine?
Itās clear that Netanyahu wonāt stop what he is doing no matter what and actually wants trump to win as trump promises to help.
Yes. Biden officially sent 100 troops to Israel a few weeks ago.
Iām looking ahead, beyond the election. Donāt start lecturing me about this shit, because Iāve heard it a million times. Biden is doing less than Reagan did towards Israel.
100 troops? That many? Why didnāt the whole Middle East surrendered already?
But seriously, this was response to Iranās attack and the soldiers are there to operate THAAD batteries to stop Iranian rockets (you know, to discourage Iran from firing at them in the first place to reduce chance of escalation).
I was asking how many US soldiers are actually taking part in the offensive in Gaza.
It quite literally is, unless you think thereās no difference between who wins in this election, in which case I would prefer you say it and save us all the time.
Ultimately, thereās no difference who wins this election. You are still going inexorably to move towards fascism and genocide, as weāve seen in all the past elections.
Preventing something from happening in an immediate sense is still preventing it from happening,
Youāre not. Youāre just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say āwell, better than bullets at least.ā
ā¦ all the effort we put into thinking and talking about voting?
If all the dedicated people doing all the voting prep work did the direct action work, it would have improved peopleās lives and you would have converted them to direct action as well. but since voting doesnāt do shit, nobody gives a shit.
Is it your opinion that we are more fascist now than we were 50 years ago, then? Or 100 years ago?
More. In fact, I think youāre one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.
Buying time give the potential to do something with the time bought. Not buying time doesnāt magic into existence extra options; not buying time only reduces your options.
You wonāt though, because your praxis is conditioning people to think voting is the only thing that matters, since everyone is putting so much effort all the time convincing people how important it is to vote for the next thing thatās just around the corner. You donāt buy time. You just hasten fascism by not doing direct action and by putting all your energy into talking about how important voting is and begging politicians with letters.
So you do think that thereās no difference in who wins the election, and this whole conversation is pointless?
Ultimately thereās no difference for your society no. Youāll still move towards fascism and continue the genocide.
Ultimately, thereās no difference who wins this election.
Oh, cool, Iāll remember this if Trump wins and weāre in line for the camps together. āHa ha, this is just like it was in the good old days, under those damn Democrats, right?ā
Youāre not. Youāre just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say āwell, better than bullets at least.ā
Okay. Letās go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?
More. In fact, I think youāre one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.
You thinkā¦ the USā¦ is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.
Oh, cool, Iāll remember this if Trump wins and weāre in line for the camps together.
You should probably resist that with something direct. Maybe some action.
Okay. Letās go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?
None so long as you keep giving thumbs up for the guy stabbing you because theyāre not using a .50 cal.
You thinkā¦ the USā¦ is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.
Ye. They were bigoted as fuck, sure. But they were not actively, blatantly as fascist as they are now.
My guy, Iām a fucking near-sighted cripple with a history of depression and suicide attempts. Iām not going to overwhelm any government goons with my elite hand-to-hand skills, trusting me with a gun in the long term will likely end up with my own brains splattered on the walls, and Iām not going to outshoot anyone when Iām recruited for the anarchist militia.
Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where itās erecting death camps might be a good idea?
None so long as you keep giving thumbs up for the guy stabbing you because theyāre not using a .50 cal.
So which kills you faster? Being stabbed repeatedly, or being shot with a .50 cal repeatedly?
Youāre continuously avoiding this because you know damn well that āKilling yourself fasterā IS less desirable than āKilling yourself slowerā, even using the assumptions in your own argument.
Ye. They were bigoted as fuck, sure. But they were not actively, blatantly as fascist as they are now.
Holy fuck. Jesus H. Christ. Do you have any idea just how much more authoritarian the US was in years past!?
My guy, Iām a fucking near-sighted cripple with a history of depression and suicide attempts. Iām not going to overwhelm any government goons with my elite hand-to-hand skills, trusting me with a gun in the long term will likely end up with my own brains splattered on the walls, and Iām not going to outshoot anyone when Iām recruited for the anarchist militia.
Thereās plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesnāt mean ātake a rifle and fightā. It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.
If you wait until youāre led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then itās (probably) too late.
Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where itās erecting death camps might be a good idea?
The only thing that will prevent that is knowing people will actively resist that.
4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: āHave you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where itās conducting genocide might be a good idea?ā
And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years youāll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knowsā¦
Youāre continuously avoiding this because you know damn well that āKilling yourself fasterā IS less desirable than āKilling yourself slowerā, even using the assumptions in your own argument.
Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going āBut if I donāt choose the knife, they might pull out a gun.ā Instead of asking yourself āwhy the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killerā. Voting for the tools of your destruction is you accepting that your killer has your support to keep killing you.
Holy fuck. Jesus H. Christ. Do you have any idea just how much more authoritarian the US was in years past!?
Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasnāt actively fascist.
Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when youāre personally being led to the pit?
Thereās plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesnāt mean ātake a rifle and fightā. It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.
When weāre at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, Iām pretty sure that āsupporting my fellow humansā isnāt whatās going to keep me out of the camps.
If you wait until youāre led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then itās (probably) too late.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently āpureā in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: āHave you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where itās conducting genocide might be a good idea?ā
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and itās even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
The state hasnāt āfallenā to this point. That weāre even having this discussion on the national stage is a sign of the changing times, sad as that is.
And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years youāll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knowsā¦
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed weāre descending into fascism from, right?
Holy shit, you have to be at least near my age. You canāt possibly confuse the state of our youth with conditions now.
Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going āBut if I donāt choose the knife, they might pull out a gun.ā Instead of asking yourself āwhy the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killerā.
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasnāt actively fascist.
ā¦
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more āfascistā, in your view, back then?
Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when youāre personally being led to the pit?
My guy, Iām entirely in support of people forming orgs for voluntary association and organization outside of state power. But you also have to reckon with the fact that state power is immense currently, that non-state actors are not in a strong position currently, and that state power has the capacity to become much more repressive than it is currently.
My message is not āVote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actionsā. My message is āFor fuckās sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONEā
You want to talk long-term plans? Iām game. You want to talk creating counterbalances to state power through trade unions, syndicates, communes, self-defense organizations? Iām game to talk. But none of that contradicts āDo not let those who want the state to become WORSE into powerā or āFascism is BAD for organizingā.
When weāre at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, Iām pretty sure that āsupporting my fellow humansā isnāt whatās going to keep me out of the camps.
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently āpureā in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
I aināt ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesnāt matter how many ālevels of powerā they hold when guillotines are being erected.
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and itās even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed weāre descending into fascism from, right?
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights? Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? Itās funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
Youāre not stopping the killer though. Youāre just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more āfascistā, in your view, back then?
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
My message is not āVote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actionsā. My message is āFor fuckās sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONEā
You didnāt answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didnāt work? Only just before the firing squad?
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
Cool, I have a week and a half before the election. What direct action can I take to keep myself out of the camps, since voting is no longer pure enough for my high-minded ideology?
I aināt ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesnāt matter how many ālevels of powerā they hold when guillotines are being erected.
ā¦
Do you remember how the guillotines were erected?
Do you think they were just magicked into existence?
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights?
You would think this would be a point in favor of not letting the state fall into fascism, even considering that Weimar Germany was far from trans-friendly and banned trans-related materials from the Institute for Sexual Science from being distributed.
Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? Itās funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
Again, this would seem like a really good reason to not allow fascism to take over the state.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
What was the plausible path away from this with a rabidly pro-Israel US public, again?
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
Nixon resigned only after his own party told him the political fallout would be too great for them to bother backing him.
Are we really going on the position that Nixon wasnāt fascist as fuck? Iād like to be clear on the matter, since you havenāt specified any actual issues.
Youāre not stopping the killer though. Youāre just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
Yes, which buys me more time to act against him.
It takes next to nothing to ensure the killer uses the knife instead of the gun. Yet you insist that the only moral option is to let the killer choose his own weapon, and then nobly martyr yourself on the .50 cal and call it resistance.
You didnāt answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didnāt work? Only just before the firing squad?
What criteria are you putting here for voting not working? As Iāve already outlined that fascism will come quicker without participation of left-elements in voting, and your only response has been āYes, well, youāre still dying slowlyā, Iām not really sure youāre āgettingā what ābuying timeā means.
It quite literally is, unless you think thereās no difference between who wins in this election, in which case I would prefer you say it and save us all the time.
Preventing something from happening in an immediate sense is still preventing it from happening, even if it doesnāt solve the long-term problems leading to it. Patching up a hole in oneās gut may not solve the autoimmune disorder thatās killing you, but itāll prevent you from dying in a more immediate sense.
ā¦ all the effort we put into thinking and talking about voting?
Most people in this country donāt even bother to vote regularly. Those that do often put no more effort into their vote than a day at the polling station based on a few caught glimpses of the political realities of this country.
What level of effort is that going to translate into direct action? Youāre looking at people entered into a 100-meter sprint, nearly half of whom decided to drop out before even beginning, with many of those whoāve finished are bitching about how long it was, and saying āIf they put that effort into an ultramarathon, THEN we would really be getting somewhere!ā
Is it your opinion that we are more fascist now than we were 50 years ago, then? Or 100 years ago?
Buying time give the potential to do something with the time bought. Not buying time doesnāt magic into existence extra options; not buying time only reduces your options.
Really? Because I would think that a literal fascist and his cronies being put into executive power might hasten fascism a tiny bit.
So you do think that thereās no difference in who wins the election, and this whole conversation is pointless?
Genuinely curious, because I see you using this narrative a lot. What are you planning to do after the election to end the genocide? You seem to balk at direct action and talk a lot about voting which is fine, but voting takes 5 minutes and we watched Kamala backtrack on all of her progressive policies and muzzled Walzā progressive nature. What are you going to do after the election?
As mentioned, Iām not even whole enough to walk more than a few blocks, and I live self-employed and under the poverty line. All I can do is donate when I can and speak to those close to me. I write my reps, but thatās pretty in-line with representative democracy, and I get the feeling that youāre looking for non-voting action outside of the norm. Iāve notably reddened my social circle, but thatās all I can claim.
I miss being able to march. But I have neither the physical nor emotional fortitude for that anymore.
I donāt balk at direct action. I decry the idea that itās a replacement for voting. Direct action is important. Voting in certain elections is, likewise, important. Dedication to direct action does not and should not preclude taking one day out of the year, or less if you live in a state with good mail-in voting laws, for harm reduction, especially when that harm is at an exceptionally bad precipice point. Nor does voting preclude direct action.
Weāve gone back and forth with each other in the past about voting, but I understand why itās so prominent for you now. Iām of the belief that itās the easiest and least effective method of change, so itās been frustrating to seemingly see no real plan to put on the pressure folks are telling us to wait for.
It is the easiest and least effective, on its own. But its the least effective in large part because it is an action taken only one or two days out of the year. Each of those days are a significant junction from which massive changes are possibly. Often bad ones, which is why itās all the more important to use those one or two days.
Direct action is food and water, but voting is medicine. Medicine wonāt save you without direct action, but refusing medicine when ill will ensure that direct action does that much less in keeping you alive. Or ensure that the problem kills you outright before you can get your body the necessary nutrition to sustain itself.
Are US troops involved there? Because one candidate clearly says that Biden is not doing enough to help Israel.
Israel currently is led by a similar fascist with criminal record to trump, that once he loses his power he will go to jail. He is using attack on October 7 as an excuse to get rid of Palestine.
And we have seen that no one can really stop Israel. Do you think Biden wouldnāt prefer that the conflict would be over (and Israel wouldnāt be stirring new shit) and not distract from the war in Ukraine?
Itās clear that Netanyahu wonāt stop what he is doing no matter what and actually wants trump to win as trump promises to help.
Yes. Biden officially sent 100 troops to Israel a few weeks ago.
Iām looking ahead, beyond the election. Donāt start lecturing me about this shit, because Iāve heard it a million times. Biden is doing less than Reagan did towards Israel.
100 troops? That many? Why didnāt the whole Middle East surrendered already?
But seriously, this was response to Iranās attack and the soldiers are there to operate THAAD batteries to stop Iranian rockets (you know, to discourage Iran from firing at them in the first place to reduce chance of escalation).
I was asking how many US soldiers are actually taking part in the offensive in Gaza.
Ultimately, thereās no difference who wins this election. You are still going inexorably to move towards fascism and genocide, as weāve seen in all the past elections.
Youāre not. Youāre just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say āwell, better than bullets at least.ā
If all the dedicated people doing all the voting prep work did the direct action work, it would have improved peopleās lives and you would have converted them to direct action as well. but since voting doesnāt do shit, nobody gives a shit.
More. In fact, I think youāre one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.
You wonāt though, because your praxis is conditioning people to think voting is the only thing that matters, since everyone is putting so much effort all the time convincing people how important it is to vote for the next thing thatās just around the corner. You donāt buy time. You just hasten fascism by not doing direct action and by putting all your energy into talking about how important voting is and begging politicians with letters.
Ultimately thereās no difference for your society no. Youāll still move towards fascism and continue the genocide.
Oh, cool, Iāll remember this if Trump wins and weāre in line for the camps together. āHa ha, this is just like it was in the good old days, under those damn Democrats, right?ā
Okay. Letās go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?
You thinkā¦ the USā¦ is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.
Check, please!
Removed by mod
You should probably resist that with something direct. Maybe some action.
None so long as you keep giving thumbs up for the guy stabbing you because theyāre not using a .50 cal.
Ye. They were bigoted as fuck, sure. But they were not actively, blatantly as fascist as they are now.
My guy, Iām a fucking near-sighted cripple with a history of depression and suicide attempts. Iām not going to overwhelm any government goons with my elite hand-to-hand skills, trusting me with a gun in the long term will likely end up with my own brains splattered on the walls, and Iām not going to outshoot anyone when Iām recruited for the anarchist militia.
Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where itās erecting death camps might be a good idea?
So which kills you faster? Being stabbed repeatedly, or being shot with a .50 cal repeatedly?
Youāre continuously avoiding this because you know damn well that āKilling yourself fasterā IS less desirable than āKilling yourself slowerā, even using the assumptions in your own argument.
Holy fuck. Jesus H. Christ. Do you have any idea just how much more authoritarian the US was in years past!?
Thereās plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesnāt mean ātake a rifle and fightā. It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.
If you wait until youāre led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then itās (probably) too late.
The only thing that will prevent that is knowing people will actively resist that.
4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: āHave you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where itās conducting genocide might be a good idea?ā
And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years youāll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knowsā¦
Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going āBut if I donāt choose the knife, they might pull out a gun.ā Instead of asking yourself āwhy the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killerā. Voting for the tools of your destruction is you accepting that your killer has your support to keep killing you.
Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasnāt actively fascist.
Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when youāre personally being led to the pit?
When weāre at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, Iām pretty sure that āsupporting my fellow humansā isnāt whatās going to keep me out of the camps.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently āpureā in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and itās even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
The state hasnāt āfallenā to this point. That weāre even having this discussion on the national stage is a sign of the changing times, sad as that is.
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed weāre descending into fascism from, right?
Holy shit, you have to be at least near my age. You canāt possibly confuse the state of our youth with conditions now.
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
ā¦
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more āfascistā, in your view, back then?
My guy, Iām entirely in support of people forming orgs for voluntary association and organization outside of state power. But you also have to reckon with the fact that state power is immense currently, that non-state actors are not in a strong position currently, and that state power has the capacity to become much more repressive than it is currently.
My message is not āVote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actionsā. My message is āFor fuckās sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONEā
You want to talk long-term plans? Iām game. You want to talk creating counterbalances to state power through trade unions, syndicates, communes, self-defense organizations? Iām game to talk. But none of that contradicts āDo not let those who want the state to become WORSE into powerā or āFascism is BAD for organizingā.
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
I aināt ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesnāt matter how many ālevels of powerā they hold when guillotines are being erected.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights? Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? Itās funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
Youāre not stopping the killer though. Youāre just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
You didnāt answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didnāt work? Only just before the firing squad?
Cool, I have a week and a half before the election. What direct action can I take to keep myself out of the camps, since voting is no longer pure enough for my high-minded ideology?
ā¦
Do you remember how the guillotines were erected?
Do you think they were just magicked into existence?
You would think this would be a point in favor of not letting the state fall into fascism, even considering that Weimar Germany was far from trans-friendly and banned trans-related materials from the Institute for Sexual Science from being distributed.
Again, this would seem like a really good reason to not allow fascism to take over the state.
What was the plausible path away from this with a rabidly pro-Israel US public, again?
Nixon resigned only after his own party told him the political fallout would be too great for them to bother backing him.
Are we really going on the position that Nixon wasnāt fascist as fuck? Iād like to be clear on the matter, since you havenāt specified any actual issues.
Yes, which buys me more time to act against him.
It takes next to nothing to ensure the killer uses the knife instead of the gun. Yet you insist that the only moral option is to let the killer choose his own weapon, and then nobly martyr yourself on the .50 cal and call it resistance.
What criteria are you putting here for voting not working? As Iāve already outlined that fascism will come quicker without participation of left-elements in voting, and your only response has been āYes, well, youāre still dying slowlyā, Iām not really sure youāre āgettingā what ābuying timeā means.