I first have to say that I really appreciate your tone and your thought out arguments. Most of these types of discussions tend to devolve into non-constructive obstinacy.
And this particular area is a very grey and complex one, so I admit it is not completely black or white for me. And these are big issues that we humans honestly will most likely not solve in any way that either of us would be happy with.
I agree with you on many points, like you have pointed out. You seem to be compassionate, empathetic, and rational.
As a non-vegan, this is one place I get kinda confused trying to see things from your point of view. Like I told the other guy, if I hunt 1 deer, I know I only hurt a single organism. I dont get any thrill out of it, I basically see it as part of Mother Nature’s grocery store. It’s a chore I don’t hate, but I see it more like a job than a hobby.
I think this comes into where I believe our disagreement is. We mostly align in the utlitiarian aspects (I’m not really utilitarian, but I’ll get to that), but we differ in the aspect of commodification. I.e. I do not think we should see sentient beings as commodities. For example, I would not eat an animal who died in an accident. I assume, for instance, that you would not eat your dog if it died in a car crash, and I extend that reasoning to other animals as well.
Again, I feel we’re both in agreement modern mass farming is our real opponent, not each other. If we all had personal garden plots that fed our families, I feel that would solve a lot of these issues for both sides of these vegan vs omnivore discussions.
Completely agree. The optimal approach in my opinion would be to reduce the impact of farming in general, but at the same time not see animals as commodities. Also, even if I would view hunting as a viable way of reducing suffering (which one can argue from a utilitarian standpoint, but I personally don’t for other reasons), we cannot sustain our population on hunting alone. Similarly I think we can’t have a functioning society like we do today with only small scale food production. We would need to either make bigger changes in the societal structure (not very likely), or we need to optimise farming with regards to environmental impact and “collateral damage” (more likely, but still difficult).
What does the world do with domesticated animals if there is no longer a need for them?
This is a hypothetical non-issue in my honest opinion. There is no likely scenario where the entire planet would turn vegan over night. Also, it is not an argument for continuing breeding animals into suffering and death. If anything it is an argument for stopping all of it after this generation of farm animals.
Also, my personal view (even if perhaps not all vegans agree) is to be non-interventionistic. I.e. I don’t think we are gods (like some other commenter said here before) who have a responsibility of maintaining nature at some arbitrary point that we think is the desired status quo. I simply think we should not unnecessarily cause harm, suffering, and death in our daily lives. As far as practicable and possible of course.
Raising livestock isn’t cheap or easy, but if it’s not a viable commercial product, who will invest that time and energy into them?
Two things. First, virtually all animal food industry today is heavily subsidised and it would not exist without those subsidies. Second, I don’t think we should breed animals into existence just so that they can exist. This is also another opinion that is perhaps not too common amongst all vegans, and it is a bit of a tangent. But I am somewhat of an anti-natalist, both with human and non-human animals. No one can suffer if they haven’t lived. And there is no reason to making beings exist just for the sake of existing. And if that existence is prolonged suffering ending with execution, it does not make sense to say that it is justified.
That owl article was interesting! But I think it is quite absurd in a way that we have fucked up nature so much that we think we should kill a bunch of animals as an attempt to unfuck it.
I hope you felt I’ve been respectful and genuine with you.
You have been very respectful, it is very rare to meet someone online with such a respectful and understanding tone when you are discussing differing opinions! I hope I haven’t been too preachy, I also just want you to understand my view.
I can highly recommend this video by Ed Winters. I agree with a lot of his opinions, and he is much more well-spoken and good at explaining arguments than I am.
You have been very awesome in this, and I feel this type of interaction is much more constructive and productive than a lot of what has gone on in a lot of these other comments. In talking with some other more angry vegans in the past, I get it’s tiring to take the effort making responses that are really involved like this only to find out the non-vegan taking to you was being disingenuous the whole time or looking to try to catch you doing something non-vegan or whatever stupid point they’re trying to make. But I’m glad we took a chance talking to each other. It’s hard to sit here and type everything out, and I wish more in person conversations went this way.
We mostly align in the utlitiarian aspects (I’m not really utilitarian, but I’ll get to that), but we differ in the aspect of commodification.
I think this is a fair assessment. It’s a bit more nuanced for me, but that I feel is pretty fair for your average person. Most people are removed from farm type animals in their daily lives and don’t really make that connection that a hamburger was once chilling in the sun eating grass having a great time. I do think about that though, and it’s what has led to me trending your direction food-wise.
We cannot sustain our population on hunting alone.
Absolutely. Human population didn’t take off until we learned to become farmers. It’s what made us civilized in a literal and modern sense. And with the whole energy pyramid it definitely makes the most sense. I love the developments going on with genetically altered grains that provide better vitam it n content and the tech bringing us lab synthesized proteins that capture the textures and sometimes tastes of meat and can’t wait for them to scale. I probably love the taste of Beyond more than any meat. It is just way too expensive still, and could stand to be a bit healthier. If price and nutrition parity was there, you’d have me vegan instantly.
There is no likely scenario where the entire planet would turn vegan over night. Also, it is not an argument for continuing breeding animals into suffering and death.
Yes, it’s more a thought experiment I give myself. Not intended to be a straw man argument but it could be seen and probably is used by many in that way.
As for interventionism, we could argue that we don’t know enough and just make matters worse. There are definitely real life cases of that. But I do feel we as a whole should be stewards of our planet. We did make most of these problems and should try to fix them, but many will likely take hundreds of years or more to fix realistically.
Second, I don’t think we should breed animals into existence just so that they can exist.
That is a lot of the root of my feelings of personal and societal responsibility. It’s too late to not do these things, and I feel the just thing to do is own our actions and to do what we can for the world we’ve created. Nothing wrong with your opinions on that though.
I’ll be sure to check out Ed Winters. I’m always looking to get a fresh perspective on things and grow as a person.
Thank you again for taking this time with me. More people should do the same. I feel a great respect for you and your beliefs. You’re definitely someone I would enjoy having regular friendly chats with.
I first have to say that I really appreciate your tone and your thought out arguments. Most of these types of discussions tend to devolve into non-constructive obstinacy.
And this particular area is a very grey and complex one, so I admit it is not completely black or white for me. And these are big issues that we humans honestly will most likely not solve in any way that either of us would be happy with.
I agree with you on many points, like you have pointed out. You seem to be compassionate, empathetic, and rational.
I think this comes into where I believe our disagreement is. We mostly align in the utlitiarian aspects (I’m not really utilitarian, but I’ll get to that), but we differ in the aspect of commodification. I.e. I do not think we should see sentient beings as commodities. For example, I would not eat an animal who died in an accident. I assume, for instance, that you would not eat your dog if it died in a car crash, and I extend that reasoning to other animals as well.
Completely agree. The optimal approach in my opinion would be to reduce the impact of farming in general, but at the same time not see animals as commodities. Also, even if I would view hunting as a viable way of reducing suffering (which one can argue from a utilitarian standpoint, but I personally don’t for other reasons), we cannot sustain our population on hunting alone. Similarly I think we can’t have a functioning society like we do today with only small scale food production. We would need to either make bigger changes in the societal structure (not very likely), or we need to optimise farming with regards to environmental impact and “collateral damage” (more likely, but still difficult).
This is a hypothetical non-issue in my honest opinion. There is no likely scenario where the entire planet would turn vegan over night. Also, it is not an argument for continuing breeding animals into suffering and death. If anything it is an argument for stopping all of it after this generation of farm animals.
Also, my personal view (even if perhaps not all vegans agree) is to be non-interventionistic. I.e. I don’t think we are gods (like some other commenter said here before) who have a responsibility of maintaining nature at some arbitrary point that we think is the desired status quo. I simply think we should not unnecessarily cause harm, suffering, and death in our daily lives. As far as practicable and possible of course.
Two things. First, virtually all animal food industry today is heavily subsidised and it would not exist without those subsidies. Second, I don’t think we should breed animals into existence just so that they can exist. This is also another opinion that is perhaps not too common amongst all vegans, and it is a bit of a tangent. But I am somewhat of an anti-natalist, both with human and non-human animals. No one can suffer if they haven’t lived. And there is no reason to making beings exist just for the sake of existing. And if that existence is prolonged suffering ending with execution, it does not make sense to say that it is justified.
That owl article was interesting! But I think it is quite absurd in a way that we have fucked up nature so much that we think we should kill a bunch of animals as an attempt to unfuck it.
You have been very respectful, it is very rare to meet someone online with such a respectful and understanding tone when you are discussing differing opinions! I hope I haven’t been too preachy, I also just want you to understand my view.
I can highly recommend this video by Ed Winters. I agree with a lot of his opinions, and he is much more well-spoken and good at explaining arguments than I am.
https://youtu.be/Z3u7hXpOm58
You have been very awesome in this, and I feel this type of interaction is much more constructive and productive than a lot of what has gone on in a lot of these other comments. In talking with some other more angry vegans in the past, I get it’s tiring to take the effort making responses that are really involved like this only to find out the non-vegan taking to you was being disingenuous the whole time or looking to try to catch you doing something non-vegan or whatever stupid point they’re trying to make. But I’m glad we took a chance talking to each other. It’s hard to sit here and type everything out, and I wish more in person conversations went this way.
I think this is a fair assessment. It’s a bit more nuanced for me, but that I feel is pretty fair for your average person. Most people are removed from farm type animals in their daily lives and don’t really make that connection that a hamburger was once chilling in the sun eating grass having a great time. I do think about that though, and it’s what has led to me trending your direction food-wise.
Absolutely. Human population didn’t take off until we learned to become farmers. It’s what made us civilized in a literal and modern sense. And with the whole energy pyramid it definitely makes the most sense. I love the developments going on with genetically altered grains that provide better vitam it n content and the tech bringing us lab synthesized proteins that capture the textures and sometimes tastes of meat and can’t wait for them to scale. I probably love the taste of Beyond more than any meat. It is just way too expensive still, and could stand to be a bit healthier. If price and nutrition parity was there, you’d have me vegan instantly.
Yes, it’s more a thought experiment I give myself. Not intended to be a straw man argument but it could be seen and probably is used by many in that way.
As for interventionism, we could argue that we don’t know enough and just make matters worse. There are definitely real life cases of that. But I do feel we as a whole should be stewards of our planet. We did make most of these problems and should try to fix them, but many will likely take hundreds of years or more to fix realistically.
That is a lot of the root of my feelings of personal and societal responsibility. It’s too late to not do these things, and I feel the just thing to do is own our actions and to do what we can for the world we’ve created. Nothing wrong with your opinions on that though.
I’ll be sure to check out Ed Winters. I’m always looking to get a fresh perspective on things and grow as a person.
Thank you again for taking this time with me. More people should do the same. I feel a great respect for you and your beliefs. You’re definitely someone I would enjoy having regular friendly chats with.