Yes, progressives who stay at home for the general election do not understand US democracy. The US has a 2 party FPTP system, not proportional representation. Unlike multi-party parliamentary systems, we usually have to vote for a compromise, not our top choice. If you donāt vote, you donāt āsend a messageā, you simply forfeit your political power. If Republicans win, and keep winning, then thatās a signal for Democrats to shift right, to try to win back the median voter.
I hate the argumentative strategy of criticizing candidates for being political ālosersā. Rightwingers do that all the time. By that logic, progressives also had āloser candidatesā, since many fail in the primaries. I personally donāt think Sanders, for example, was a āloserā, even if he lost in the primary.
Yes, progressives who stay at home for the general election do not understand US democracy.
Or we do? āWe lose regardless. Letās stay home.ā
Iām getting really sick of this inversion of responsibility. Moderates dominate the primaries and elect someone who doesnāt resonate with the leftists and progressives but arenāt responsible for how that candidate does in the general? They control the outcome in the primaries but arenāt responsible for what happens in the general? That makes no sense.
As the majority moderates must take the lions share of the responsibility. Where is that happening?
We might as well skip all the pomp and circumstance and just assign the votes automatically based on party registration. Thatās how itās done currently with the added facade of having a āchoice.ā
The Overton window continues to shift to the right regardless of who wins elections because there are power people benefiting from it and itās incredibly easy to spread propaganda to the masses with tv/radio/internet.
What are you even talking about with your first paragraph? The result of elections arenāt predictable. In fact, theyāre less predictable than ever. And whatās with āchoiceā in quotes: are you an election truther? Thatās more of a right wing conspiracy.
Thatās a pathetic cowardly take on the Overton window. What even is your point? āLetās give up because nothing mattersā? Fuck that. Iām fighting.
Itās also empirically untrue: I donāt know how you havenāt noticed that the US is going through the biggest labor movement in a generation. In the last 3 years, Dems have passed one of the most progressive agendas in a generation.
Iām talking about the fact that we keep getting Clintonās and Bidens as our nominees because thatās what the party leadership wants. They choose who gets the backing, who gets the funding, who gets the airtime, and who gets to debate. The primaries are little more than a sham to give us the illusion of choice because this private organization already picked their winner. You claim elections are less predictable than ever, yet thereās a 100% chance itās going to be one of two people, either the D or R, whoās going to win, both backed by the same wealthy donors to do their bidding. Thatās the illusion of choice.
Your fighting, eh? Well, howās the fight coming? At what point do you consider the fight won? Do you envision some point in the future where Republicans no longer hold office and the country is some utopia of pure Democratic leadership? Good luck accomplishing that when, as I stated above, there are only two choice on the ballot and one of them is Republican. That kind of solidifies their place in government as theyāre the only alternative for people to vote for. That ensures weāll keep having people like Trump waiting in the wings and taking office every time a Clinton-like candidate runs against them. This also ensures that Democratic candidates donāt actually have to do jack shit for the country as theyāre going to get your vote anyway. This is why I stated that elections might as well be automatic based on party registration and why itās an illusion of choice. Youāre not fighting by voting D or R. Youāre just perpetuating the status quo.
If you think Bidenās candidacy was inevitable, you were asleep during the primaries. Hereās the simple obvious explanation: Biden never lost his nationwide polling lead, not once, during the whole race. Are the polls part of the conspiracy too?
The craziest thing about your conspiracy theory is that itās flatly contradicted by Trump, who was clearly NOT the establishment choice in 2016. Establishment politicians and media pushed Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, John Kasich, anyone but Trump. They all criticized or downplayed Trump non-stop (for good reason)ā¦ and yet he won.
Well, howās the fight coming?
Iām living through one of the biggest shifts left in politics in a generation. The left/center-left coalition has been surprisingly dominant. Mid-terms, special elections, etc. We keep winning. Itās not perfect, but itās the right direction. But we need to keep winning elections for a long time for durable change.
At what point do you consider the fight won?
Never. Politics is a continual process, not a destination. If we get complacent, progress dies.
Do you envision some point in the future where Republicans no longer hold office and the country is some utopia of pure Democratic leadership?
No. Thatās not even the point. Republicans used to be the progressive party (thatās why they use the color red). Parties donāt matter as much as ideas. The point isnāt for āmy teamā to win. If Republicans continue losing for a decade, then they will be forced to shift left, just as Dems shifted right after Reagan with Clinton.
If you think Bidenās candidacy was inevitable, you were asleep during the primaries.
I feel like youāre asleep now. Even as people sweat the possibility of Biden losing they are claiming Biden had the best chance of anyone running in the primaries to defeat Trump in the general. Letās dissect that claim for a moment.
That would mean:
There are people who would either vote for Trump, 3rd party or not vote at all in the general election if Biden had not won the primaries.
That population of people must exceed the number of leftists and progressives staying home or voting 3rd party because Biden won the primaries.
Furthermore, this message isnāt being delivered as a political reality backed up by numbers and proof, but rather a promise by moderates. If leftists or progressives did manage to get a candidate through the primaries moderates would abandon all that āvote blue not matter whoā stuff immediately and outright fight them in the general election to prove a point.
Apathy, rebellion and anger are rational responses to this experience.
Youāre changing the subject. My claim was about 2020, not 2024. This year, yes, Bidenās candidacy is inevitable. It is almost unheard of to challenge an incumbent president, and Democrats want to avoid an intra-party fight. When Ted Kennedy challenged Jimmy Carter in 1980, it was a disaster that damaged the party for a long time.
I agree with you that Biden is a weak candidate and there are better candidates. But you made the extreme claim that elections donāt matter, that we have no choice, that shadowy elites choose all the candidates, and other silly conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy theories donāt become justified just because youāre apathetic and angry. Iām not sure how you think youāre being rebellious. When you donāt vote, thatās not rebellion. No one cares. You donāt matter, politically.
I was talking about the 2020 primaries as well. Even in retrospect plenty of people still say out of all candidates in the 2020 primaries Biden was the best chance of beating Trump. Then they turn around and try to figure out why so many leftists and progressives are becoming apathetic, angry or voting 3rd party.
Youāre shaming progressives for staying home, but you arenāt casting judgement at the people who voted for a loser candidate in the primaries.
Yes, progressives who stay at home for the general election do not understand US democracy. The US has a 2 party FPTP system, not proportional representation. Unlike multi-party parliamentary systems, we usually have to vote for a compromise, not our top choice. If you donāt vote, you donāt āsend a messageā, you simply forfeit your political power. If Republicans win, and keep winning, then thatās a signal for Democrats to shift right, to try to win back the median voter.
I hate the argumentative strategy of criticizing candidates for being political ālosersā. Rightwingers do that all the time. By that logic, progressives also had āloser candidatesā, since many fail in the primaries. I personally donāt think Sanders, for example, was a āloserā, even if he lost in the primary.
Or we do? āWe lose regardless. Letās stay home.ā
Iām getting really sick of this inversion of responsibility. Moderates dominate the primaries and elect someone who doesnāt resonate with the leftists and progressives but arenāt responsible for how that candidate does in the general? They control the outcome in the primaries but arenāt responsible for what happens in the general? That makes no sense.
As the majority moderates must take the lions share of the responsibility. Where is that happening?
right
We might as well skip all the pomp and circumstance and just assign the votes automatically based on party registration. Thatās how itās done currently with the added facade of having a āchoice.ā
The Overton window continues to shift to the right regardless of who wins elections because there are power people benefiting from it and itās incredibly easy to spread propaganda to the masses with tv/radio/internet.
What are you even talking about with your first paragraph? The result of elections arenāt predictable. In fact, theyāre less predictable than ever. And whatās with āchoiceā in quotes: are you an election truther? Thatās more of a right wing conspiracy.
Thatās a pathetic cowardly take on the Overton window. What even is your point? āLetās give up because nothing mattersā? Fuck that. Iām fighting.
Itās also empirically untrue: I donāt know how you havenāt noticed that the US is going through the biggest labor movement in a generation. In the last 3 years, Dems have passed one of the most progressive agendas in a generation.
Iām talking about the fact that we keep getting Clintonās and Bidens as our nominees because thatās what the party leadership wants. They choose who gets the backing, who gets the funding, who gets the airtime, and who gets to debate. The primaries are little more than a sham to give us the illusion of choice because this private organization already picked their winner. You claim elections are less predictable than ever, yet thereās a 100% chance itās going to be one of two people, either the D or R, whoās going to win, both backed by the same wealthy donors to do their bidding. Thatās the illusion of choice.
Your fighting, eh? Well, howās the fight coming? At what point do you consider the fight won? Do you envision some point in the future where Republicans no longer hold office and the country is some utopia of pure Democratic leadership? Good luck accomplishing that when, as I stated above, there are only two choice on the ballot and one of them is Republican. That kind of solidifies their place in government as theyāre the only alternative for people to vote for. That ensures weāll keep having people like Trump waiting in the wings and taking office every time a Clinton-like candidate runs against them. This also ensures that Democratic candidates donāt actually have to do jack shit for the country as theyāre going to get your vote anyway. This is why I stated that elections might as well be automatic based on party registration and why itās an illusion of choice. Youāre not fighting by voting D or R. Youāre just perpetuating the status quo.
If you think Bidenās candidacy was inevitable, you were asleep during the primaries. Hereās the simple obvious explanation: Biden never lost his nationwide polling lead, not once, during the whole race. Are the polls part of the conspiracy too?
The craziest thing about your conspiracy theory is that itās flatly contradicted by Trump, who was clearly NOT the establishment choice in 2016. Establishment politicians and media pushed Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, John Kasich, anyone but Trump. They all criticized or downplayed Trump non-stop (for good reason)ā¦ and yet he won.
Iām living through one of the biggest shifts left in politics in a generation. The left/center-left coalition has been surprisingly dominant. Mid-terms, special elections, etc. We keep winning. Itās not perfect, but itās the right direction. But we need to keep winning elections for a long time for durable change.
Never. Politics is a continual process, not a destination. If we get complacent, progress dies.
No. Thatās not even the point. Republicans used to be the progressive party (thatās why they use the color red). Parties donāt matter as much as ideas. The point isnāt for āmy teamā to win. If Republicans continue losing for a decade, then they will be forced to shift left, just as Dems shifted right after Reagan with Clinton.
I feel like youāre asleep now. Even as people sweat the possibility of Biden losing they are claiming Biden had the best chance of anyone running in the primaries to defeat Trump in the general. Letās dissect that claim for a moment.
That would mean:
Furthermore, this message isnāt being delivered as a political reality backed up by numbers and proof, but rather a promise by moderates. If leftists or progressives did manage to get a candidate through the primaries moderates would abandon all that āvote blue not matter whoā stuff immediately and outright fight them in the general election to prove a point.
Apathy, rebellion and anger are rational responses to this experience.
Youāre changing the subject. My claim was about 2020, not 2024. This year, yes, Bidenās candidacy is inevitable. It is almost unheard of to challenge an incumbent president, and Democrats want to avoid an intra-party fight. When Ted Kennedy challenged Jimmy Carter in 1980, it was a disaster that damaged the party for a long time.
I agree with you that Biden is a weak candidate and there are better candidates. But you made the extreme claim that elections donāt matter, that we have no choice, that shadowy elites choose all the candidates, and other silly conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy theories donāt become justified just because youāre apathetic and angry. Iām not sure how you think youāre being rebellious. When you donāt vote, thatās not rebellion. No one cares. You donāt matter, politically.
I was talking about the 2020 primaries as well. Even in retrospect plenty of people still say out of all candidates in the 2020 primaries Biden was the best chance of beating Trump. Then they turn around and try to figure out why so many leftists and progressives are becoming apathetic, angry or voting 3rd party.