I don’t know how the mineral ingredients of a fuel cell stack compare to a lithium battery, but assuming they’re the same, a fuel cell vehicle has significantly less of them. For example, the fuel cell stack in the Toyota Mirai weighs about 19kg and is complemented with a battery that weighs 45kg (1, 2). In comparison, the Tesla Model 3 carries a battery weighing 480kg. Therefore, a BEV has about 6.5x as much stuff of questionable origin (and questionable disposal requirements) as a FCEV.
As the transportation sector electrifies, how can you be so sure that the GHG-free portion of the grid’s electricity mix will stay the same or improve? Why wouldn’t the fossil fuels that currently power our vehicle fleet follow the demand and shift to powering the grid? BEVs only make a small portion of the cars on the road, but there’s evidence that this shift is already happening. So, while it might currently be the case that the hydrogen powering an FCEV was derived from natural gas, it’s also certainly possible that your BEV is effectively running on coal. I’m not trying to knock BEVs here. Rather, I’m making the point that the problem you’ve raised is one of energy policy, not FCEVs. Relying on BEVs to mitigate our current energy policy, instead of correcting the policy, is just going to create new problems.
As for recycling battery packs, yes, I’m aware that it’s a thing, but it’s not pretty. The best course is to minimize the amount of battery that needs to be dealt with in the first place.
A month after the Business Journal article, a Harris Ranch spokesperson confirmed that Tesla did set up diesel generators to power Superchargers for a time. So, it’s a thing that happens. Regardless, the point is that the energy in the gasoline and diesel fuel that goes into most of the fleet will still have to come from somewhere and there are no policies to make sure it comes from GHG-free sources.
Funny thing is that EVs are still cleaner than ICE even when powered by a Coal grid
If it’s not a problem for BEVs to run on electricity derived from coal, then it shouldn’t be a problem for FCEVs to run on hydrogen derived from natural gas. What I’m saying is that it doesn’t really matter how the energy from coal or natural gas eventually gets consumed. It’s a separate issue that we simply shouldn’t be burning any of that stuff.
There is no clean, cheap, efficient source of hydrogen. You still need to transport it around burning more fuel to transport it all around.
That’s just not true. Electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen can be accomplished with electricity from any source and it even makes intermittent renewable sources feasible without massive, enviromentally unfriendly batteries or fossil fuel fired peaking plants. It is even possible to get hydrogen from natural gas by way of pyrolysis, which avoids CO2 emissions. Hydrogen can of course be safely and efficiently transported by pipeline, probably significantly more safely than overhead power transmission lines can “transport” electricity.
There are already multiple ways to get clean electricity for BEVs and the supply chain is cleaner… Plant, grid, sometimes a grid storage battery, battery, car.
Fixed it for you. All these batteries are going to be a problem. Meanwhile, hydrogen just requires pressure vessels and pipelines for storage and transport, which are much safer for the environment.
As we have seen in Germany, the permanent reduction of coal fired electricity is not a sure thing. Regardless, the point is that whether you are driving a BEV or an FCEV, it will be running on an overall energy mix that is determined by separate national policies.
Electrolysis is at least 25% less as efficient than just storing the electricity in battery’s as it produces both oxygen and hydrogen and then you need to spend some more of the power compressing it…. Even before you get to transporting it. Otherwise we would just have electrolytes plants all over already.
The relative inefficiency is okay because it still produces hydrogen, which is better for transport applications than electricity in batteries. Plus, oxygen is a useful byproduct, which everyone seems to ignore.
I don’t know how the mineral ingredients of a fuel cell stack compare to a lithium battery, but assuming they’re the same, a fuel cell vehicle has significantly less of them. For example, the fuel cell stack in the Toyota Mirai weighs about 19kg and is complemented with a battery that weighs 45kg (1, 2). In comparison, the Tesla Model 3 carries a battery weighing 480kg. Therefore, a BEV has about 6.5x as much stuff of questionable origin (and questionable disposal requirements) as a FCEV.
The FCEV is going to be fueled from fossil fuels for the foreseeable future
Today, about 95% of all hydrogen is produced from steam reforming of natural gas.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-fuel-basics#:~:text=Today%2C about 95%25 of all,steam reforming of natural gas.
EV battery packs however can be nearly fully recycled back into more batteries.
https://blog.ucsusa.org/jessica-dunn/how-are-ev-batteries-actually-recycled/
As the transportation sector electrifies, how can you be so sure that the GHG-free portion of the grid’s electricity mix will stay the same or improve? Why wouldn’t the fossil fuels that currently power our vehicle fleet follow the demand and shift to powering the grid? BEVs only make a small portion of the cars on the road, but there’s evidence that this shift is already happening. So, while it might currently be the case that the hydrogen powering an FCEV was derived from natural gas, it’s also certainly possible that your BEV is effectively running on coal. I’m not trying to knock BEVs here. Rather, I’m making the point that the problem you’ve raised is one of energy policy, not FCEVs. Relying on BEVs to mitigate our current energy policy, instead of correcting the policy, is just going to create new problems.
As for recycling battery packs, yes, I’m aware that it’s a thing, but it’s not pretty. The best course is to minimize the amount of battery that needs to be dealt with in the first place.
Shift? Dude that article has been debunked already.
https://thebusinessjournal.com/blog-harris-ranch-sets-record-straight-on-diesel-powered-tesla-supercharger-allegations/
Funny thing is that EVs are still cleaner than ICE even when powered by a Coal grid
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/
A month after the Business Journal article, a Harris Ranch spokesperson confirmed that Tesla did set up diesel generators to power Superchargers for a time. So, it’s a thing that happens. Regardless, the point is that the energy in the gasoline and diesel fuel that goes into most of the fleet will still have to come from somewhere and there are no policies to make sure it comes from GHG-free sources.
If it’s not a problem for BEVs to run on electricity derived from coal, then it shouldn’t be a problem for FCEVs to run on hydrogen derived from natural gas. What I’m saying is that it doesn’t really matter how the energy from coal or natural gas eventually gets consumed. It’s a separate issue that we simply shouldn’t be burning any of that stuff.
There is no clean, cheap, efficient source of hydrogen. You still need to transport it around burning more fuel to transport it all around.
There are already multiple ways to get clean electricity for BEVs and the supply chain is cleaner… Plant, grid, car.
Also coal is already a TINY TINY % of US power production, https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/ , going to natural gas sourced hydrogen would be a step backward.
When source to consumption is considered BEV is the cleanest option so far.
That’s just not true. Electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen can be accomplished with electricity from any source and it even makes intermittent renewable sources feasible without massive, enviromentally unfriendly batteries or fossil fuel fired peaking plants. It is even possible to get hydrogen from natural gas by way of pyrolysis, which avoids CO2 emissions. Hydrogen can of course be safely and efficiently transported by pipeline, probably significantly more safely than overhead power transmission lines can “transport” electricity.
Fixed it for you. All these batteries are going to be a problem. Meanwhile, hydrogen just requires pressure vessels and pipelines for storage and transport, which are much safer for the environment.
As we have seen in Germany, the permanent reduction of coal fired electricity is not a sure thing. Regardless, the point is that whether you are driving a BEV or an FCEV, it will be running on an overall energy mix that is determined by separate national policies.
Electrolysis is at least 25% less as efficient than just storing the electricity in battery’s as it produces both oxygen and hydrogen and then you need to spend some more of the power compressing it…. Even before you get to transporting it. Otherwise we would just have electrolytes plants all over already.
The relative inefficiency is okay because it still produces hydrogen, which is better for transport applications than electricity in batteries. Plus, oxygen is a useful byproduct, which everyone seems to ignore.
As for the lack of hydrogen infrastructure, I think that has to do with it not getting as much support from the government. I couldn’t find a specific comparison, but the Wikipedia lists many more US programs supporting plug-in electric vehicles than ones supporting fuel cell vehicles. Apparently, Obama’s energy secretary, Steven Chu, was very anti-hydrogen and that’s just how it went.