It’s not really a strawman argument, it’s closer to an ad hominem. In fact, the argument you are making is closer to a strawman.
“A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.” -Wikipedia
Saying that “if you can’t tell the difference between the two parties is a you problem” is attacking the person not the issue. Saying that the difference between the two parties isn’t the problem (when that’s what is being argued) and instead it’s the system is by definition a strawman. Using the strawman to make the discussion about the futility of voting in a flawed system just goes to show how much of a strawman it is.
Nope, the thread they were responding is this one (https://lemmy.one/comment/13175909) which is about the two parties (specifically whether higher turnout would benefit one party or the other). Someone else replied saying that it’s about the system being broken (itself a strawman). This guy made an attack on the person, but was still focused on the two party system. Then you made a strawman as well.
And comparing the two parties like they are both the same within this broken system is counterproductive. One party is openly planning an authoritarian coup, and the other is far too beholden to the capitalist class. Voting third party or abstaining (same thing) is a vote to end whatever shreds of democracy we still have.
Vote for the lesser evil and make a scene about whatever you don’t like but don’t pretend the two parties are the same. It kills morale and it’s bullshit to boot.
You are watching a victim forced to give a gun to either
sleazeball or
a psychopath who has an explicitly outlined plan to use the gun to get more guns and kill as many people as possible.
Instead of urging the victim to choose the lesser evil you are doing… nothing? Bravely doing nothing so that next time… the sleazeball will make better choices or arguments? Or maybe so that next time the victim will learn their lesson and find a third option?
Well I wouldnt tell that person to go on message boards and shit on every single person who shows the slightest bit of hesitance to vote democrat.
I also wouldnt use false equivalencies to prove my point either.
It might come as a shock to you, but there are more than just two scenarios that exist. You can bark at me all you want but you care more about predicting who wins than affecting change, so we aren’t even talking about the same things.
Well I wouldnt tell that person to go on message boards and shit on every single person who shows the slightest bit of hesitance to vote democrat.
Lol. You aren’t hesitant, you are falsely equating a party that is deeply flawed and a party actively working to undermine and steal an election because they know that their policies are so disturbingly bad and unpopular that even the disproportionate power their given by the electoral college can’t sustain them unless they cheat.
There are more than two outcomes, but I know that several very possible outcomes result in christofascism ruling the USA for the foreseeable future.
You can bark at me all you want but you care more about predicting who wins than affecting change, so we aren’t even talking about the same things.
Predicting who wins? What are you even talking about. I don’t know who is going to win so my point is all hands on deck to preserve what flawed democracy we still have left. If you plan is to sit this one out in some misguided attempt to “affect change” by doing nothing, then I’m going to bark.
Because you are so sure criticism of the democrats means I wouldnt vote for them. Which is part of the problem. Lack of creativity we could call it but the world isn’t black and white. No matter who you vote for you are suppressing the discussion around politics. Making it more narrow as to what is acceptable. The reason we are stuck with two parties is because of this narrow thinking. Politics is not a combat sport its a co-op game, and nothing will change until public perspective shifts towards that.
I don’t know how I can make this any clearer. This election, 2024, is not normal. In 2020 or any year prior I’d agree with you that things are not black and white.
The man attempted a fucking coup after he lost in 2020. He has forced anyone loyal to him, or fearful of his political power, to deny that he legitimately lost the last election. An enormous effort has been undertaken to install people loyal to him through the election process in countless states and counties throughout the country to have already tested their ability to contest, refuse to certify, and/or slow walk the electoral process.
The upcoming election is black and white. If this man doesn’t suffer an overwhelming loss, there is a very good chance the US will become a dictatorship.
If he wins its because the democrats spend their time attacking poor or religious republican voters instead of trying to understand why they feel the way they do. There are still peoplevoteing for trump because he’s not a “politician” and politicians have fucked them over for their entire lives.
The fact that half the country trusts Trump and the new republican party says more about the country than it does Trump. I’m sure if we just shit on those people hard enough they won’t vote, right? Same thing being done to third party voters. If you aren’t with us you are: evil, immoral, hate minorities, hate lgbtq, etc etc.
Democrats love to talk lately about coming together and supporting people while throwing shit on every single outgroup. Republicans might hate some groups very openly, but democrats do the same and pretend it doesnt exist or more often just call it a good thing when they do it, cause of course they are the good team.
Vote for the lesser evil and make a scene about whatever you don’t like but don’t pretend the two parties are the same. It kills morale and it’s bullshit to boot.
If we are clutching onto the shreds of democracy through bullshit votes where pointing out the obvious might break moral to the point of slipping fully into fascism… That just feels like the end of an empire. Wasnt a statement on how to end it but a genuine question of;
So you you think this is the last chapters? Cause that sounds bad enough to look at history and see you don’t normally come out the other side of this breakdown unscathed.
If we are clutching onto the shreds of democracy through bullshit votes where pointing out the obvious might break moral to the point of slipping fully into fascism… That just feels like the end of an empire.
So you you think this is the last chapters?
Being honest, yes. I didn’t expect so many people to be misinformed enough to think someone like Donald Trump will make their lives better. Or, worse, they only know he’s promised to make life worse for “those people” and that’s enough for them to want him in charge.
That’s a strawman argument. Pointing out that one of them is worse than the other ignores the real problem - the system is broken.
It’s not really a strawman argument, it’s closer to an ad hominem. In fact, the argument you are making is closer to a strawman.
“A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.” -Wikipedia
Saying that “if you can’t tell the difference between the two parties is a you problem” is attacking the person not the issue. Saying that the difference between the two parties isn’t the problem (when that’s what is being argued) and instead it’s the system is by definition a strawman. Using the strawman to make the discussion about the futility of voting in a flawed system just goes to show how much of a strawman it is.
It’s a strawman because they’re trying to shift the focus from one thing (the system is broken) to another (Republicans are bad)
Nope, the thread they were responding is this one (https://lemmy.one/comment/13175909) which is about the two parties (specifically whether higher turnout would benefit one party or the other). Someone else replied saying that it’s about the system being broken (itself a strawman). This guy made an attack on the person, but was still focused on the two party system. Then you made a strawman as well.
And comparing the two parties like they are both the same within this broken system is counterproductive. One party is openly planning an authoritarian coup, and the other is far too beholden to the capitalist class. Voting third party or abstaining (same thing) is a vote to end whatever shreds of democracy we still have.
Vote for the lesser evil and make a scene about whatever you don’t like but don’t pretend the two parties are the same. It kills morale and it’s bullshit to boot.
I find voting against my values to be a killer of morale, and bullshit to boot.
Then your values are flawed.
You are watching a victim forced to give a gun to either
sleazeball or
a psychopath who has an explicitly outlined plan to use the gun to get more guns and kill as many people as possible.
Instead of urging the victim to choose the lesser evil you are doing… nothing? Bravely doing nothing so that next time… the sleazeball will make better choices or arguments? Or maybe so that next time the victim will learn their lesson and find a third option?
Well I wouldnt tell that person to go on message boards and shit on every single person who shows the slightest bit of hesitance to vote democrat.
I also wouldnt use false equivalencies to prove my point either.
It might come as a shock to you, but there are more than just two scenarios that exist. You can bark at me all you want but you care more about predicting who wins than affecting change, so we aren’t even talking about the same things.
Lol. You aren’t hesitant, you are falsely equating a party that is deeply flawed and a party actively working to undermine and steal an election because they know that their policies are so disturbingly bad and unpopular that even the disproportionate power their given by the electoral college can’t sustain them unless they cheat.
There are more than two outcomes, but I know that several very possible outcomes result in christofascism ruling the USA for the foreseeable future.
Predicting who wins? What are you even talking about. I don’t know who is going to win so my point is all hands on deck to preserve what flawed democracy we still have left. If you plan is to sit this one out in some misguided attempt to “affect change” by doing nothing, then I’m going to bark.
Because you are so sure criticism of the democrats means I wouldnt vote for them. Which is part of the problem. Lack of creativity we could call it but the world isn’t black and white. No matter who you vote for you are suppressing the discussion around politics. Making it more narrow as to what is acceptable. The reason we are stuck with two parties is because of this narrow thinking. Politics is not a combat sport its a co-op game, and nothing will change until public perspective shifts towards that.
I don’t know how I can make this any clearer. This election, 2024, is not normal. In 2020 or any year prior I’d agree with you that things are not black and white.
The man attempted a fucking coup after he lost in 2020. He has forced anyone loyal to him, or fearful of his political power, to deny that he legitimately lost the last election. An enormous effort has been undertaken to install people loyal to him through the election process in countless states and counties throughout the country to have already tested their ability to contest, refuse to certify, and/or slow walk the electoral process.
The upcoming election is black and white. If this man doesn’t suffer an overwhelming loss, there is a very good chance the US will become a dictatorship.
If he wins its because the democrats spend their time attacking poor or religious republican voters instead of trying to understand why they feel the way they do. There are still peoplevoteing for trump because he’s not a “politician” and politicians have fucked them over for their entire lives.
The fact that half the country trusts Trump and the new republican party says more about the country than it does Trump. I’m sure if we just shit on those people hard enough they won’t vote, right? Same thing being done to third party voters. If you aren’t with us you are: evil, immoral, hate minorities, hate lgbtq, etc etc.
Democrats love to talk lately about coming together and supporting people while throwing shit on every single outgroup. Republicans might hate some groups very openly, but democrats do the same and pretend it doesnt exist or more often just call it a good thing when they do it, cause of course they are the good team.
Soooo… End of an empire?
There are better ways to end an empire than making a christofascist the emperor and hoping it burns to the ground eventually.
Oh sure but this
Doesn’t sound like it has a happy resolution.
I’m not sure what you are saying or what it has to do with ending an empire.
If we are clutching onto the shreds of democracy through bullshit votes where pointing out the obvious might break moral to the point of slipping fully into fascism… That just feels like the end of an empire. Wasnt a statement on how to end it but a genuine question of;
So you you think this is the last chapters? Cause that sounds bad enough to look at history and see you don’t normally come out the other side of this breakdown unscathed.
Being honest, yes. I didn’t expect so many people to be misinformed enough to think someone like Donald Trump will make their lives better. Or, worse, they only know he’s promised to make life worse for “those people” and that’s enough for them to want him in charge.