The current literature shows growing evidence of a link between gender dysphoria (GD) and autism spectrum disorder (ASD). This study reviews the available clinical and empirical data. A systematic search of the literature was conducted using the following databases: PubMed, Web of Science, PsycINFO …
Research indicates that individuals with ASD are more likely to experience gender dysphoria, and vice versa.
This is a good way to describe the way moral reasoning works for a lot nd people succinctly. Now I will describe it much less succinctly lmao
There are possibly neurological bases for this as well
Mirror neuron system, for example, is thought to be a key factor in development of empathy and moral understanding. This is this system of neurons that give a shared neural activation in response to stimuli, eg we see someone in pain and it activates regions that activate when we experience pain directly
However, people with autism tend to have less active mirror neurons or differently organized system of mirror neurons (still somewhat poorly understood). This is one of the theorized mechanisms behind challenges with socialization and empathization in autism.
However people with autism can obviously still socialize and become empathic, right? I have spoken to many people with autism who if anything feel they are too empathetic.
One of the hypotheses here is that because of the above neurological difference there is a compensatory strategy. Essentially that instead of being able to naturally adapt neurologically people with autism create empathization, social and moral understanding, etc through higher level cognition. Analytical and cognitive based approaches. Trial and error, assessment and reflection, etc rather than instinctive and emotionally driven responses.
Thus far more thought is given to concepts and ideas that the general public simply does not consider. What is gender? What is a social construct? What is the point of social pragmatic language? What is the point of “business appropriate attire”? what is the point?
We recognize that many of these questions are simply tradition enforced by hierarchy balanced against us and can quickly fall apart with basic logic. We dissect these questions and potentially start to reach a state of postconventional moral development (read Kohlberg for more about this).
The thing about this is that you start to recognize a morality that supersedes the need for social order and start to maintain a personal sense of ethics and morality that is not dictated by external factors but empathization. You’re more likely to support civil disobedience now and also more likely to violate social norms but that’s because many social norms don’t make sense. Not surprisingly many adults don’t move to post conventional morality; they stay at a conventional morality in support of maintaining social order. Their morality is mostly dictated from external factors like law and religion.
Now to be clear this doesn’t mean that January 6 trump people have post conventional morality because they were practicing civil disobedience. Their violence was to arguably to protect social norms and to push to a society with extremely rigid social norms and they arguably have the moral development of a child (punishment and obedience stage, literally the first one, classic fascist shit). Where they stand in terms of moral development is an interesting debate but that’s a different post altogether
There’s a lot more to this like medial prefrontal cortex differences, temporo-parietal junction, VTA, reward system activation, etc. the neuroscience here is super interesting and of course it’s important to stress that people with autism approach moral reasoning differently and not that they can’t do it because if you don’t stress that dumb people associate autism with sociopathy and think all autistic people are elon musk
Interesting. As someone with autism I can definitely say that I don’t feel others pain directly like it was my own.
Is this actually what others feel? The concept of that makes no sense to me. Does it really feel exactly the same as if your own, the pain is not a concept?
My experience is that I empathize by understanding. I learn about different people’s experiences and am interested in philosophy and ethics. I have been through a lot of trauma myself.
I can then extrapolate all of that and empathize with how others feel, and the struggles they have. Often I find myself in situations where I am upset by people’s callousness but nobody else seems to care. It’s only when it affects them emotionally that they take interest, and then they seem to become unstable and act out in harmful ways that might not fit the situation.
My perspective does not feel like a robot high level logic. The empathy is immediately felt but there is an understanding behind it and separation from self. The sense of self is very weak if there at all. I often feel separated from my own physical pain and sensations.
But to clarify the logic doesn’t need to be super high level. “High level” in my post just meaning it’s a higher level process oriented to using logic at all, versus something more akin to a “going with your gut”, if that makes sense?
I do hope you can find people who will empathize with you in ways that are not so transactional though. Maybe that’s not possible. Life is give and take I suppose. Maybe instead it’s about finding people who have the right balance of that? I dunno but at a minimum you deserve to have people care about your frustration, at least sometimes.
No worries I understand what you meant. I should probably also clarify that I intended that part for other readers.
I know that there is a stereotype that autistic thinking is some kind of high level robotic empathy. It doesn’t feel like that for me at least. Instead of feeling a physical or emotional pain it’s an immediate pull and understanding towards kindness, fairness and easing suffering.
Did I understand your post correctly that people do feel a physical pain response to others suffering? Somehow I made it to middle aged and never realized that if so. Thanks for the post, definitely one of the best I have ever seen and gives me a missing piece to reflect on. Which I will probably use later on to empathize with others who process empathy differently lol.
I do feel pain. When it comes to physical pain, it’s kind of more dull than my own pain. And it’s not just about pain, I feel other perceptions as well. Looking at someone being in a very cold environment in a movie makes me shiver. When it comes to emotions, I often feel other’s emotions as strongly as my own.
Wrt pain response it varies. Some people do describe actually “feeling” the pain of others, read on “empathetic distress” for more on this. It’s less common but is interesting; in some people when they empathize with someone experiencing something like physical pain there is activation of areas of the brain that process physical pain (insula and anterior cingulate cortex) in addition to showing physiological response consistent with pain (tachycardia, perspiration, wincing, etc)
It could be performative but the neurological activation can’t really be faked and the physiological responses can be challenging to fake. Additionally there is variability in response and behavioral indicators like attempting to render aid which are somewhat inconsistent with performative acts (though not definitively so)
This is a really good write up. It reflects my experience and understanding well.
If I can offer my opinion on the J6 types, I think we have to be careful not to present them as antithetical to the autistic way of thinking, because a lot of autistic people end up in those spaces. For some, the world and its norms become so inscrutable that they seek other sources of order. Religion and strictly defined politics can become a comfort, as illusory as they are.
So it may seem contradictory, but autistic people can swing hard away from social norms, but they can also swing hard into it. Because it’s a spectrum, defined by divergence, which can happen in any direction.
Autistic people do not inherently develop post conventional morality and the j6 types are not presented here as a counter to “autism” but as a counter to “post conventional morality”
There are many autistic people who are stuck in the early more stages focused on discipline and punishment. Many neurotypical ppl as well. These people are extremely susceptible to fascism because it appeals to simplistic morals based on “things need to go my way and if they don’t you need to get severe punishment”.
I would also suggest, based on the autistic people in my own family, that autistic people generally have a much more solid and developed sense of self than neurotypical people. So where a neurotypical person might think, “maybe I’m a woman, not a man, but could that be true? Should I tell the world?” an autistic person will think, “I am a woman. If you tell me I’m not a woman, you’re lying.”
This is a good way to describe the way moral reasoning works for a lot nd people succinctly. Now I will describe it much less succinctly lmao
There are possibly neurological bases for this as well
Mirror neuron system, for example, is thought to be a key factor in development of empathy and moral understanding. This is this system of neurons that give a shared neural activation in response to stimuli, eg we see someone in pain and it activates regions that activate when we experience pain directly
However, people with autism tend to have less active mirror neurons or differently organized system of mirror neurons (still somewhat poorly understood). This is one of the theorized mechanisms behind challenges with socialization and empathization in autism.
However people with autism can obviously still socialize and become empathic, right? I have spoken to many people with autism who if anything feel they are too empathetic.
One of the hypotheses here is that because of the above neurological difference there is a compensatory strategy. Essentially that instead of being able to naturally adapt neurologically people with autism create empathization, social and moral understanding, etc through higher level cognition. Analytical and cognitive based approaches. Trial and error, assessment and reflection, etc rather than instinctive and emotionally driven responses.
Thus far more thought is given to concepts and ideas that the general public simply does not consider. What is gender? What is a social construct? What is the point of social pragmatic language? What is the point of “business appropriate attire”? what is the point?
We recognize that many of these questions are simply tradition enforced by hierarchy balanced against us and can quickly fall apart with basic logic. We dissect these questions and potentially start to reach a state of postconventional moral development (read Kohlberg for more about this).
The thing about this is that you start to recognize a morality that supersedes the need for social order and start to maintain a personal sense of ethics and morality that is not dictated by external factors but empathization. You’re more likely to support civil disobedience now and also more likely to violate social norms but that’s because many social norms don’t make sense. Not surprisingly many adults don’t move to post conventional morality; they stay at a conventional morality in support of maintaining social order. Their morality is mostly dictated from external factors like law and religion.
Now to be clear this doesn’t mean that January 6 trump people have post conventional morality because they were practicing civil disobedience. Their violence was to arguably to protect social norms and to push to a society with extremely rigid social norms and they arguably have the moral development of a child (punishment and obedience stage, literally the first one, classic fascist shit). Where they stand in terms of moral development is an interesting debate but that’s a different post altogether
There’s a lot more to this like medial prefrontal cortex differences, temporo-parietal junction, VTA, reward system activation, etc. the neuroscience here is super interesting and of course it’s important to stress that people with autism approach moral reasoning differently and not that they can’t do it because if you don’t stress that dumb people associate autism with sociopathy and think all autistic people are elon musk
Interesting. As someone with autism I can definitely say that I don’t feel others pain directly like it was my own.
Is this actually what others feel? The concept of that makes no sense to me. Does it really feel exactly the same as if your own, the pain is not a concept?
My experience is that I empathize by understanding. I learn about different people’s experiences and am interested in philosophy and ethics. I have been through a lot of trauma myself.
I can then extrapolate all of that and empathize with how others feel, and the struggles they have. Often I find myself in situations where I am upset by people’s callousness but nobody else seems to care. It’s only when it affects them emotionally that they take interest, and then they seem to become unstable and act out in harmful ways that might not fit the situation.
My perspective does not feel like a robot high level logic. The empathy is immediately felt but there is an understanding behind it and separation from self. The sense of self is very weak if there at all. I often feel separated from my own physical pain and sensations.
Yes, I literally feel the pain of others. Not as though it happened to me but enough to wince if I see most animals get hurt (aside from insects).
I’m more sensitive than normal though. Hyper-awareness from abuse. It’s also isolating and lonely, even though I’m not on the spectrum.
This makes sense. Experiential understanding
But to clarify the logic doesn’t need to be super high level. “High level” in my post just meaning it’s a higher level process oriented to using logic at all, versus something more akin to a “going with your gut”, if that makes sense?
I do hope you can find people who will empathize with you in ways that are not so transactional though. Maybe that’s not possible. Life is give and take I suppose. Maybe instead it’s about finding people who have the right balance of that? I dunno but at a minimum you deserve to have people care about your frustration, at least sometimes.
No worries I understand what you meant. I should probably also clarify that I intended that part for other readers.
I know that there is a stereotype that autistic thinking is some kind of high level robotic empathy. It doesn’t feel like that for me at least. Instead of feeling a physical or emotional pain it’s an immediate pull and understanding towards kindness, fairness and easing suffering.
Did I understand your post correctly that people do feel a physical pain response to others suffering? Somehow I made it to middle aged and never realized that if so. Thanks for the post, definitely one of the best I have ever seen and gives me a missing piece to reflect on. Which I will probably use later on to empathize with others who process empathy differently lol.
I do feel pain. When it comes to physical pain, it’s kind of more dull than my own pain. And it’s not just about pain, I feel other perceptions as well. Looking at someone being in a very cold environment in a movie makes me shiver. When it comes to emotions, I often feel other’s emotions as strongly as my own.
Well that certainly boosts my ego, thanks
Wrt pain response it varies. Some people do describe actually “feeling” the pain of others, read on “empathetic distress” for more on this. It’s less common but is interesting; in some people when they empathize with someone experiencing something like physical pain there is activation of areas of the brain that process physical pain (insula and anterior cingulate cortex) in addition to showing physiological response consistent with pain (tachycardia, perspiration, wincing, etc)
It could be performative but the neurological activation can’t really be faked and the physiological responses can be challenging to fake. Additionally there is variability in response and behavioral indicators like attempting to render aid which are somewhat inconsistent with performative acts (though not definitively so)
This is a really good write up. It reflects my experience and understanding well.
If I can offer my opinion on the J6 types, I think we have to be careful not to present them as antithetical to the autistic way of thinking, because a lot of autistic people end up in those spaces. For some, the world and its norms become so inscrutable that they seek other sources of order. Religion and strictly defined politics can become a comfort, as illusory as they are.
So it may seem contradictory, but autistic people can swing hard away from social norms, but they can also swing hard into it. Because it’s a spectrum, defined by divergence, which can happen in any direction.
I agree but to clarify:
Autistic people do not inherently develop post conventional morality and the j6 types are not presented here as a counter to “autism” but as a counter to “post conventional morality”
There are many autistic people who are stuck in the early more stages focused on discipline and punishment. Many neurotypical ppl as well. These people are extremely susceptible to fascism because it appeals to simplistic morals based on “things need to go my way and if they don’t you need to get severe punishment”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg’s_stages_of_moral_development
_These people would literally be in the first stage of the Heinz dilemma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_dilemma
Kohlbergs stages have valid criticisms (like they ignore the entire concept of collectivist cultures, for one) but they’re still a decent framework
I would also suggest, based on the autistic people in my own family, that autistic people generally have a much more solid and developed sense of self than neurotypical people. So where a neurotypical person might think, “maybe I’m a woman, not a man, but could that be true? Should I tell the world?” an autistic person will think, “I am a woman. If you tell me I’m not a woman, you’re lying.”
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I don’t mean a sense of identity in terms of culture, I mean in terms of core identity. Who you are at your very core self.
Good reading. Thanks.