Why would they need soldiers āwhen the time comesā / āwhen the day comesā? I thought Ukraine was a lot more evil dictatorship than Russia. Arenāt you looking forward to peace? Wouldnāt it be nicer to have Russia on their borders, with open borders and free media, and finally put an end to the corruption of Ukraine? You said you were looking forward to the Russian military rolling over Kyiv, and then you could leave under the auspices of Russiaās more friendly government. Right?
I donāt understand where do you see any paradox in that. Yes Iām looking forward to peace for Ukraine. Yes, I think it will be possible to leave the country in case of peace deal or if Ukraine falls. Yes, I consider it possible for Russia to continue and attack EU states eventually. Do you think Iām telling NATO to come fight for Ukraine or something? That would be neat, but thatās obviously not going to happen.
and then you could leave under the auspices of Russiaās more friendly government
Itās not that they are kind, they just less absurd and at least donāt sabotage their own economy and morale as hard as ukrainian government does.
Ukrainian ladies would be very disappointed in you.
The US State Department (more so than USAID, although Iām sure they were in Ukraine) was certainly involved in Maidan. They didnāt create all those people in the streets. Those same crowds of people are out fighting against the Russians right now.
Just give it a rest. Russians can fuck off and go home. Thatās peace.
They didnāt create all those people in the streets.
Apparently a lot of those far-right NGOs who were āthe musclesā of Maidan were funded by west. I guess most of those have found their way to Valhalla by now. Certainly there were some civilian activists as well. I hope they donāt have to participate in undersupplied meat assaults.
Oh yeah, the muscles came with their thick skulls and brutally assaulted the batons of the berkut and titushky.
Get fucked. I think how Iām going to start to deal with it when people start commenting bullshit to me, is to start to make posts about the accurate side of the matter, so that the sum total impact of you talking with me will be the spread of a lot more accurate information, instead of anything achieving your actual goal.
Tell me more about these far-right NGOs. Which NGOs, and about how many of their āmusclesā were in the protests in 2013?
I took that straight from the Reddit thread I linked, you can find more there (there are some links to other sources as well). There were dozens of far-right NGOs, some of the biggest ones are listed in Wikipedia article you posted (Right Sector, Svoboda, UDAR, Spilna Sprava, Misanthropic Division). By the evening of today dozens of our popular videobloggers made videos about USAID and Maidan. Iām getting kinda sick of digging through this stuff.
Hereās my reply to your comment elsewhere, off topic:
he wished he could live in Russia
I would only ever travel out of there once and never come back. Iām just envy that they can leave freely if they donāt like anything. We donāt have such option.
You said āI said it has open borders which is factually true. Also, last summer they paid their conscripts in Moscow 22k$ for a contract. Regarding āhuman rightsā, well, lets try to count human rights. We donāt have the right to criticise our government and we donāt have the right to leave the country. Russians donāt have the right to criticize their government but they do have the right to leave the country. They also pretty much free to walk their cities and participate in whatever activities present there unlike our conscription-aged men who are only really allowed to participate in war.ā Sounds like you envy a lot more about it than just the ability to leave.
paid thugs coming in rough up anyone who opposed it
I never said that.
You said āApparently a lot of those far-right NGOs who were āthe musclesā of Maidan were funded by west.ā In general, you seem to think that without āthe Westā, Maidan would never have succeeded, which given how little the West as a whole cares about Ukraine is pretty laughable. But itās hard for me to interpret this combination any other way than that the āmusclesā were helping it succeed, and it wasnāt a genuine peopleās movement.
Ukraineās military was corrupt and mismanaging the war
Our government admit this and talk about it every day, yet they only fight each other and donāt do anything to fix it.
āYourā government has fended off an enemy which is outspending and outmanning it by more than an order of magnitude. Of course, this kind of thing happens sometimes with empires, but usually if the little country is incompetent, it stops working the instant that US troops leave the country.
I made this point, and you made a weird non sequitur about ācaldronsā that didnāt really seem to grasp the core point that I was making.
Iām not really interested in the conversation anymore, I just wanted to respond since you made some specific points accusing me of misrepresenting you. Thatās what you said, maybe my summary was sloppy. Iām just mostly not interested in what you have to say anymore, to be honest.
Also:
he wishes he could be in Russia where he could get $22k for signing up with the military
Youāre again making things up about what I said. Also, you keep failing to understand the motives even though I explained them. You can just read it again more carefully.
You said, āAnd payment is laughable anyway. It would be really easy to boost morale if government decided to end forced conscription and paid to volunteers more than russia does. And it also could probably help to stabilize the frontlines. Given how much they steal Iām pretty sure they have more than enough money to pay more than russians 22k$ to volunteers as a single-time payment.ā
Maybe youāre right, my summary was pretty inaccurate there. It sounded to me like you were pining for the higher pay, similar to my āenvyā quotation above, but itās true you didnāt explicitly say it.
Like I say, Iām mostly done, just wanted to respond to the accusation that I was lying about what you said.
Sounds like you envy a lot more about it than just the ability to leave.
True, but that doesnāt mean I want to live in Russia. Itās just ridiculous to fight for what our people get and how our government treats us vs country that gives their people more and treats their people better. Countries arenāt something that has inherent self-worth after all, the whole concept of states was supposed to be a tool to make people live better.
But itās hard for me to interpret this combination any other way than that the āmusclesā were helping it succeed
Those āmusclesā played central role in making it succeed, people alone couldnāt do it. Civilians in general are really bad at violence, especially in eastern europe. I was a student back then, and I didnāt know a single person among my classmates or relatives or their contacts who went to Maidan.
and it wasnāt a genuine peopleās movement.
Itās āgenuineā in a sense there is definitely something upsetting people and at the right time forces come in to drive that energy of people into revolution. The point is, it doesnāt happen to most of things upsetting people. Since then weāve many times had 100x more reasons for another Maidan, but there were no forces investing into āmusclesā during long timeframes that were interested in our upset at those moments to overthrow government again. West is way more interested in dealing maximum damage to Russia at the cost of lives of ukrainians than saving lives of ukrainians. Also West thinks that if we become Russia it would just mean that Russia became stronger and itās better to just kill us all to prevent Russia from getting us. Itās understandable point of view, but we as ukrainians are not interested in it.
I donāt understand where do you see any paradox in that. Yes Iām looking forward to peace for Ukraine. Yes, I think it will be possible to leave the country in case of peace deal or if Ukraine falls. Yes, I consider it possible for Russia to continue and attack EU states eventually. Do you think Iām telling NATO to come fight for Ukraine or something? That would be neat, but thatās obviously not going to happen.
Itās not that they are kind, they just less absurd and at least donāt sabotage their own economy and morale as hard as ukrainian government does.
ā¦
If youāre interested what ukrainians are talking about today, itās how USAID funded Maidan in 2014 and how it explains why we donāt have Maidan now even though we have 100x reasons for it. In the meanwhile, Verkhovna Rada fighting each other while admitting terrible mismanagement of the frontlines. Iām personally researching some threads on extents of foreign influence in 2014 Maidan and some general things about colour revolutions.
Ukrainian ladies would be very disappointed in you.
The US State Department (more so than USAID, although Iām sure they were in Ukraine) was certainly involved in Maidan. They didnāt create all those people in the streets. Those same crowds of people are out fighting against the Russians right now.
Just give it a rest. Russians can fuck off and go home. Thatās peace.
Apparently a lot of those far-right NGOs who were āthe musclesā of Maidan were funded by west. I guess most of those have found their way to Valhalla by now. Certainly there were some civilian activists as well. I hope they donāt have to participate in undersupplied meat assaults.
Oh yeah, the muscles came with their thick skulls and brutally assaulted the batons of the berkut and titushky.
Get fucked. I think how Iām going to start to deal with it when people start commenting bullshit to me, is to start to make posts about the accurate side of the matter, so that the sum total impact of you talking with me will be the spread of a lot more accurate information, instead of anything achieving your actual goal.
https://ponder.cat/post/1518838
Have fun! Tell me more about these far-right NGOs. Which NGOs, and about how many of their āmusclesā were in the protests in 2013?
I took that straight from the Reddit thread I linked, you can find more there (there are some links to other sources as well). There were dozens of far-right NGOs, some of the biggest ones are listed in Wikipedia article you posted (Right Sector, Svoboda, UDAR, Spilna Sprava, Misanthropic Division). By the evening of today dozens of our popular videobloggers made videos about USAID and Maidan. Iām getting kinda sick of digging through this stuff.
Here is Reddit thread I posted before: https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/tg9zwp/what_evidence_exists_for_or_against_the_assertion/
Hereās my reply to your comment elsewhere, off topic:
You said āI said it has open borders which is factually true. Also, last summer they paid their conscripts in Moscow 22k$ for a contract. Regarding āhuman rightsā, well, lets try to count human rights. We donāt have the right to criticise our government and we donāt have the right to leave the country. Russians donāt have the right to criticize their government but they do have the right to leave the country. They also pretty much free to walk their cities and participate in whatever activities present there unlike our conscription-aged men who are only really allowed to participate in war.ā Sounds like you envy a lot more about it than just the ability to leave.
You said āApparently a lot of those far-right NGOs who were āthe musclesā of Maidan were funded by west.ā In general, you seem to think that without āthe Westā, Maidan would never have succeeded, which given how little the West as a whole cares about Ukraine is pretty laughable. But itās hard for me to interpret this combination any other way than that the āmusclesā were helping it succeed, and it wasnāt a genuine peopleās movement.
āYourā government has fended off an enemy which is outspending and outmanning it by more than an order of magnitude. Of course, this kind of thing happens sometimes with empires, but usually if the little country is incompetent, it stops working the instant that US troops leave the country.
I made this point, and you made a weird non sequitur about ācaldronsā that didnāt really seem to grasp the core point that I was making.
Iām not really interested in the conversation anymore, I just wanted to respond since you made some specific points accusing me of misrepresenting you. Thatās what you said, maybe my summary was sloppy. Iām just mostly not interested in what you have to say anymore, to be honest.
Also:
You said, āAnd payment is laughable anyway. It would be really easy to boost morale if government decided to end forced conscription and paid to volunteers more than russia does. And it also could probably help to stabilize the frontlines. Given how much they steal Iām pretty sure they have more than enough money to pay more than russians 22k$ to volunteers as a single-time payment.ā
Maybe youāre right, my summary was pretty inaccurate there. It sounded to me like you were pining for the higher pay, similar to my āenvyā quotation above, but itās true you didnāt explicitly say it.
Like I say, Iām mostly done, just wanted to respond to the accusation that I was lying about what you said.
Enjoy: https://ponder.cat/post/1522382
True, but that doesnāt mean I want to live in Russia. Itās just ridiculous to fight for what our people get and how our government treats us vs country that gives their people more and treats their people better. Countries arenāt something that has inherent self-worth after all, the whole concept of states was supposed to be a tool to make people live better.
Those āmusclesā played central role in making it succeed, people alone couldnāt do it. Civilians in general are really bad at violence, especially in eastern europe. I was a student back then, and I didnāt know a single person among my classmates or relatives or their contacts who went to Maidan.
Itās āgenuineā in a sense there is definitely something upsetting people and at the right time forces come in to drive that energy of people into revolution. The point is, it doesnāt happen to most of things upsetting people. Since then weāve many times had 100x more reasons for another Maidan, but there were no forces investing into āmusclesā during long timeframes that were interested in our upset at those moments to overthrow government again. West is way more interested in dealing maximum damage to Russia at the cost of lives of ukrainians than saving lives of ukrainians. Also West thinks that if we become Russia it would just mean that Russia became stronger and itās better to just kill us all to prevent Russia from getting us. Itās understandable point of view, but we as ukrainians are not interested in it.
You didnāt reply again, but I decided to get ahead of it a little bit, in case you decided to:
https://ponder.cat/post/1520470