You’re evading. I didn’t ask if they were. I asked if you expected it. Do you? Or are only Jews expected to denounce genocide every time they face bigotry in your view?
To their detriment, people generally do not think about any population with statistical terms. Humans are tribalist and much prefer binary thinking and always have. Linguists say that is not going to change and will get worse. I hear that our embrace of stats in the later 1900s was an aberation in the arc of historical rhetoric.
So the question becomes, when does a random fellow human feel its right to make generalizations?
when its 50% +1 (aka “more right than wrong”)
99%?
99.999%
or only at 100%?
Given, its a sliding scale dependent on the harm being done by making the assumption. If this decision kills someone, people generally will not make an assumption unless they are in an incited mob. If it will irritate or unfairly characterize you, nobody cares, and they will feel free to assume.
surety at 100% is obviously the ideal answer, but humans will never approach that because its too much work. We dont care about the uniqueness of individuals who self identify into a group. Most people tend much more toward 50%+1 than 100% in their thinking. As an example, I’m sure there were some (maybe not many) actually good people in the german nazi party. Maybe they werent aware of the murders, or their kid was a soldier, or whatever. Ever heard anyone talk about being careful not to malign them? And no, I am not suggesting we sympathize with nazis. This is part of the problem judges had to wrestle with after ww2: “not evil nazis”
Theres also the problem of crypto nazis as well. People who are secretly in favor of genocide but wont admit it outright. Humans lie, we all know this, so embracing someone on their word is not a successful strategy. We have to watch their actions instead. And we get tired of looking earnestly for outliers. Sorry, its not fair, but as far as I can tell its how humanity works, broadly speaking. Additionally, people do recognize that a lot of manipulation and marketing shenanigans has been going on around the Palestinian genocide. Yes, we are stupid, but we are just smart enough to see how ham-fisted that effort was. Thats not even going into what happened in the last election.
And theres the problem of aggregation. Sure any one member of a group stands a 15% chance of being against the genocide, but when 3 people get together, whats the odds that they are all against genocide? It drops from 15% per person to 3 tenths of one percent for a group of 3 all being members of that minority. This assumes uniform distribution of that viewpoint across a defined population.
your multi-paragraph attempt at justifying calling all Jews Zionist is noted
Thats not what I said at all. You’re lashing out and putting words in my mouth. The TLDR is that your complaint is doomed by human nature. So you better get creative.
And hey, my “attempt” is “noted”?
Well your emotional outbursts and manipulative straw manning is “noted”. Seems you arent acting maturely enough to consider these problems in the abstract. Thats a ‘you’ problem bud. Way to miss the point and insert your own “woe is me!” cry as the only consideration here. You are displaying the same binary thinking as I was talking about in my post.
As to your other comment:
You do know that Jews live in countries other than Israel and the U.S., right?
Sure. but over 82% of the worlds jewish population live in the US and in Israel. Did you know that?
I’m not jewish, or Palestinian, or religious in any way, but I am flatly against war crimes and genocide, period. And that puts me in the progressive camp where I am shat upon by the population just as much as you feel now, if not more. But you have lumped me in with the people who define all jews as zionists. Do you see how you are jumping to conclusions about me in exactly the manner you are angry about other people doing to you?
“You better get creative” at telling people to stop being such fucking bigots? Do you even pay attention to yourself?
And that puts me in the progressive camp where I am shat upon by the population just as much as you feel now, if not more.
Oh really? How many times has someone yelled a vile bigoted slur at you in the past year because of what you look like? How many times in your life did someone physically assault you because of what you look like? Because it’s more than zero for me. How often are you told you have dual allegiances due to who your parents are, which is why genocide is your fault? Because it’s a hell of a lot more than zero for me.
No. I don’t expect any decent behavior from anyone, but the United States administration should apologize for creating conditions that caused it, and fix it. And these circumstances are actively different, and I will try to be more sensitive. I don’t expect you to self reflect, since several people have called your words/reactions out in various threads, but that’s no reason I shouldn’t.
I’m not searching for every post. I’ll remind you of the post naming lemmy famous people. I think you want everyone to treat you with just gloves because you’re fragile and volatile. If not for the other Jewish people I may have come of that way who_aren’t_ that fragile and volatile, I wouldn’t have given it a second thought. I don’t dislike you either, I just know that’s who you are.
You’re not searching for every post because you just want to automatically assume someone who tells you is Jewish is a Zionist and just a quick glance at my posts would tell you how wrong that is.
But you’ve made it quite clear you believe Jew = Zionist and Jew = Pro Genocide. And even when they come right out and tell you that’s wrong, like I did, you just assume the Jew telling you that is being a typical deceitful Jew.
Da’esh. They surely were, when da’esh was in the news.
You’re evading. I didn’t ask if they were. I asked if you expected it. Do you? Or are only Jews expected to denounce genocide every time they face bigotry in your view?
@flying squid, part of the problem: “85% of American Jewish adults believe it is important for the U.S. to support Israel”
https://www.ajc.org/news/ajc-survey-shows-american-jews-are-deeply-and-increasingly-connected-to-israel
To their detriment, people generally do not think about any population with statistical terms. Humans are tribalist and much prefer binary thinking and always have. Linguists say that is not going to change and will get worse. I hear that our embrace of stats in the later 1900s was an aberation in the arc of historical rhetoric.
So the question becomes, when does a random fellow human feel its right to make generalizations?
when its 50% +1 (aka “more right than wrong”) 99%? 99.999% or only at 100%?
Given, its a sliding scale dependent on the harm being done by making the assumption. If this decision kills someone, people generally will not make an assumption unless they are in an incited mob. If it will irritate or unfairly characterize you, nobody cares, and they will feel free to assume.
surety at 100% is obviously the ideal answer, but humans will never approach that because its too much work. We dont care about the uniqueness of individuals who self identify into a group. Most people tend much more toward 50%+1 than 100% in their thinking. As an example, I’m sure there were some (maybe not many) actually good people in the german nazi party. Maybe they werent aware of the murders, or their kid was a soldier, or whatever. Ever heard anyone talk about being careful not to malign them? And no, I am not suggesting we sympathize with nazis. This is part of the problem judges had to wrestle with after ww2: “not evil nazis”
Theres also the problem of crypto nazis as well. People who are secretly in favor of genocide but wont admit it outright. Humans lie, we all know this, so embracing someone on their word is not a successful strategy. We have to watch their actions instead. And we get tired of looking earnestly for outliers. Sorry, its not fair, but as far as I can tell its how humanity works, broadly speaking. Additionally, people do recognize that a lot of manipulation and marketing shenanigans has been going on around the Palestinian genocide. Yes, we are stupid, but we are just smart enough to see how ham-fisted that effort was. Thats not even going into what happened in the last election.
And theres the problem of aggregation. Sure any one member of a group stands a 15% chance of being against the genocide, but when 3 people get together, whats the odds that they are all against genocide? It drops from 15% per person to 3 tenths of one percent for a group of 3 all being members of that minority. This assumes uniform distribution of that viewpoint across a defined population.
You do know that Jews live in countries other than Israel and the U.S., right?
But your multi-paragraph attempt at justifying calling all Jews Zionists by default is noted.
Thats not what I said at all. You’re lashing out and putting words in my mouth. The TLDR is that your complaint is doomed by human nature. So you better get creative.
And hey, my “attempt” is “noted”?
Well your emotional outbursts and manipulative straw manning is “noted”. Seems you arent acting maturely enough to consider these problems in the abstract. Thats a ‘you’ problem bud. Way to miss the point and insert your own “woe is me!” cry as the only consideration here. You are displaying the same binary thinking as I was talking about in my post.
As to your other comment: You do know that Jews live in countries other than Israel and the U.S., right?
Sure. but over 82% of the worlds jewish population live in the US and in Israel. Did you know that?
I’m not jewish, or Palestinian, or religious in any way, but I am flatly against war crimes and genocide, period. And that puts me in the progressive camp where I am shat upon by the population just as much as you feel now, if not more. But you have lumped me in with the people who define all jews as zionists. Do you see how you are jumping to conclusions about me in exactly the manner you are angry about other people doing to you?
“You better get creative” at telling people to stop being such fucking bigots? Do you even pay attention to yourself?
Oh really? How many times has someone yelled a vile bigoted slur at you in the past year because of what you look like? How many times in your life did someone physically assault you because of what you look like? Because it’s more than zero for me. How often are you told you have dual allegiances due to who your parents are, which is why genocide is your fault? Because it’s a hell of a lot more than zero for me.
But sure, you get shat upon so much more.
(Typical whiny Jew, am I right?)
No. I don’t expect any decent behavior from anyone, but the United States administration should apologize for creating conditions that caused it, and fix it. And these circumstances are actively different, and I will try to be more sensitive. I don’t expect you to self reflect, since several people have called your words/reactions out in various threads, but that’s no reason I shouldn’t.
What words and reactions are those that “several people” have called out? Go on. Call me a Zionist and prove my point.
I’m not searching for every post. I’ll remind you of the post naming lemmy famous people. I think you want everyone to treat you with just gloves because you’re fragile and volatile. If not for the other Jewish people I may have come of that way who_aren’t_ that fragile and volatile, I wouldn’t have given it a second thought. I don’t dislike you either, I just know that’s who you are.
You’re not searching for every post because you just want to automatically assume someone who tells you is Jewish is a Zionist and just a quick glance at my posts would tell you how wrong that is.
But you’ve made it quite clear you believe Jew = Zionist and Jew = Pro Genocide. And even when they come right out and tell you that’s wrong, like I did, you just assume the Jew telling you that is being a typical deceitful Jew.