Iām gonna get real with you folks, weāve had way too many of these posts recently. Iāve been reflecting on this topic a lot the past few days. For me personally, I couldnāt care less about my gender identity. But just because thatās true for me, doesnāt make that true for everyone.
The beauty of the fediverse is that if you donāt like the way a particular instance or community is moderated you can simply choose another to hang out on, or create your own.
Blajah has made it pretty clear by now they will ban anyone who argues against the validity of xenogenders, in order to create a safe space for those folks. Thatās fair enough imo.
Safe spaces should be respected, and Blajahās admins/mods do not deserve abuse for creating and maintaining those spaces.
I can completely understand why Blajah users donāt want to have to constantly argue with external users about the validity of their chosen identities. Bans are one way Blajah has decided to manage that problem so that their users can experience lemmy in relative peace and safety. While it is a blunt tool and I have my reservations about preemptive bans, there are not many other options for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone, other than defederation from most instances. That would be a terrible outcome for the fediverse as a whole.
In order to help Blajah to maintain their safe space, I would like to propose, if @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com agrees and community sentiment is positive:
- that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
- we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
Thatās all folks, have at 'er.
Iād want the old posts kept for historical reference, but otherwise Iām fine with this.
Iāll die on the hill that their bullshit about pronouns and respecting nonsense and made up troll identities that make a mockery of us makes the world LESS SAFE for queer people. As a queer person who is visibly gender nonconforming and at physical risk in our current political environment. Im willing to be banned from all of lemmy over this idgaf.
Millennial queers and our elders fought like hell for acceptance so children could get their panties in a twist over being āmisgenderedā by strangers on the internet who donāt know them nor give a fuck what their gender is. Do these kids even touch grass? Chronically online children putting us all at risk.
Meanwhile we have real serious threats to our physical safety in America but yeah. Letās whine and cry about being misgendered! itās oppression!
Edit - IRL I call people what they want to be called. Online I have no idea who the fuck you are or what your gender is nor am I going to remember. And the genderless ātheyā is not undermining your gender you donāt get to police the English language. And thatās really what this is about. People who feel powerless grabbing on to what little power they have to police others behavior under the ironic concept of āgatekeeping.ā Thatās the pronoun whining in a nutshell.
As for the question at hand, lock old posts, let new ones through. Their moderation is heavy handed and not queer friendly and they deserve criticism for it. Only their kind of queer is accepted. Not people like me living in reality, staring down the beginning of a genocide and telling them to grow the fuck up.
edit: oops i posted this in the wrong thread apologize
Theyāre a bunch of petulant children who care more about pronoun policing and power tripping and ironically gatekeeping than preparing for the incoming fucking genocide.
They provide a safe space for made up identities and actively harm actual queer people.
hereās a tldr of your spectacular crashout
them: āi acknowledge that memory is fallible but if you know someone and have been introduced to your pronouns you should at least do your best and itās not very loving to default to they/them you should at least try :)
you: āyou are a piss baby and are responsible for your oppressionā
you: gets banned
you: āpiss baby im being so oppressed also you donāt care about genocideā
moderates a drama community
gets upset when people air drama
PTB if you make this change
this community is about documenting admin/mod abuse making exceptions for other instances undermines the entire point
Iām OK with that but it has to be a bit more targeted specifically to blahajās rule about gatekeeping and neopronouns, and I would add everything drag of course.
I wouldnāt delete old posts, just lock them.
Maybe make it a temporary moratorium?
agree. seeing that the trolls the posters here are crying about have been banneed for weeks to months, a temporary moratorium is probably fine. maybe six months but im pulling that number from nowhere.
- Leave the threads up, probably locked. Donāt erase history.
- I wouldnāt start on wholesale topic bans just yet. This should be an absolute last resort and this will probably do more harm than good.
- Possibly create some extra categories for titles so users can filter it out if they donāt want to hear about it. Instance name of the potential PTB? Not sure.
My suggestion for this topic right now is to get everyone together that needs to and talk/scream/yell about it in private. I think everything has been said publicly at this point and the reading comprehension has gone down the toilet. The amount of misunderstandings, blanket downvotes, pettiness, bad assumptions, baiting and finger pointing is getting ridiculous. Have your damn say and find a conclusion, even if said conclusion is āfuck youā from each person.
For shit like this in the future? If it comes to it, it is far better to lock first, talk to the person, and then unlock it. We can tell each other all day to be an adult, but it isnāt that simple. There will always be some big event that floods the community at some point or another. This community practically begs for it. It will eventually be filed into PTB history.
Why do you need to delete old posts?
Where can users banned by blahaj admins for lurking in other communities report it? Especially because the lahaj admins ban so many people for gatekeeping despite them not gatekeeping.
Thereās a theme here of covering up dissent instead of engaging.
Blahaj admins started this whole ordeal in december for banning dissent and losing dozens of users instead of engaging with their community.
PTB
THANK YOU
I stopped visiting this instance because the transphobic screeds became too much for me. Someone who doesnāt āgetā half of young trans people but just feels being nice to people exploring themselves or ignoring them if theyāre too much is easier.
Well, Iām for this move. The why is obvious, as youāve covered it in the post already.
I would also like to voice support for a couple ideas from previous comments
First, that previous posts stay up, and locked, so that people can still see that the issues were.
Second, that yāall consider the possibility of an FPT (frequently power tripped) thread at some frequency where folks can still hash out the common subjects. This and the mod abuse C/ are valuable pressure relief valves. I worry that a total banning of āfrequent fliersā (sic) might have effects down the road.
I know thatās extra work for mods, so itās definitely a big ask, but lemmy does need places where disgruntled users can complain. Having multiple places is better because one community would get swamped if theyāre the only place people can go for specific complaints.
In favor of doing this, but keep the old posts locked without removing them so people know what happened and what led up to this.
I agree in at least a memorandum or a break on this so everyone, myself included, can outside and breathe from air. Play games they enjoy. Read a good book. Listen to music.
Taking a break from the keyboard helps me when Iām upset about online stuff that doesnāt impact the real world.
Mad love for the user name, btw :)
Thank you!
I wouldnāt be against a temporary ban on posts about getting banned from LBZ over neopronouns, but my general inclination is to keep the previous posts up but locked as a wall of shame. I also understand wanting to take them down altogether and I wouldnāt be that fussed about it if they were.
Iām completely in favor of this.
Frankly, most of what I see on this comm is BPR and YDI, and most people could probably benefit from taking their bans and touching grass. But having some posts be YDI makes the PTBās more exciting so maybe iām wrong.
Maybe we should make some penalty for earning a YDI or BPR, so that people who receive them arenāt encouraged to re-hash the same conflicts over and over? Iām honestly not sure. Part of the problem is that the same people cross-post the same conflict on similar comms, which makes it feel as if the same issue is being litigated repeatedly.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i donāt think.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i donāt think.
Is that all it takes to be immune from PTB status? Being a āprotectiveā community, but only towards the ārightā people who think in the ārightā way?
Maybe it is? Donāt non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, donāt they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
Youāre all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. Youāve more than said your piece.
And what about queer people who donāt play the pronoun police power tripping game? We should just go fuck ourselves I guess
No, you should find a community thatās a better fit for you
Oh, the irony.
Donāt non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
Sure, though it seems as if their right extends to not being satirized in other communities for being power-tripping bastards. Donāt they have a right to not be criticized for stifling any discussion and banning people based on vibes and posting history, using thought-terminating cliches in place of arguments? Well, it seems they do.
Maybe it is? Donāt non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
Is there a group out there that doesnāt have the right to moderate their own space āas they likeā?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, donāt they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
āThey have the rightā and āIt is always the correct callā are two entirely different concepts.
Youāre all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. Youāve more than said your piece.
Yeah, well maybe Iām fucking pissed that I just watched a user get harassed out of the Fediverse because Blahaj wants to play harassment games on other peopleās instances, and that Iām the one who had to fucking bring it up to be discussed. Maybe I donāt like the idea that if I stayed quiet this all wouldāve been swept under the rug.
Jesus
I havenāt a clue what event youāre referring to even though I feel as though Iāve encountered nothing but your comments today. If your goal is to discuss a specific abuse then youāve done a piss poor job of it.
Iād recommend reaching out to @dbzero@lemmy.dbzer0.com if you think thereās been that severe of an abuse thatās happened, and the community mod hasnāt addressed it well enough.
Honestly, though, it just seems like you have an axe to grind and youāre taking it out on everyone else. Either settle it with the admins or cool off a bit, youāre souring the space for everyone by flaming out like this.
I havenāt a clue what event youāre referring to even though I feel as though Iāve encountered nothing but your comments today.
Iāve summarized the events in this thread alone at least twice.
My opinions on xenogender aside, the fact that Blahaj defenders, in this very comm, harassed a trans user into leaving the Fediverse has me fuming, and rightfully so in my opinion. And they play it off as ā[The harassed user] deserved it.ā even now. That is pretty core to the anger I feel right now.
Uh, considering recent events, where Blahaj defenders dogpiled a trans person on another instance for disagreeing with them, you sure about that
Most of my comments have been refutations to specific arguments put forth in the context of those events.
What user was it?
Do you have something more specific than your (purely objective) recounting of what happened? A link to it?
At the moment, Iām not sure Iād trust you if you told me the sky was blue
https://lemmy.world/post/26286098
Itās one of the most recent threads on this comm.
Boy you sure are pissed you got blocked before getting to say a slur.
Boy you sure are pissed you got blocked before getting to say a slur.
what
The way I see it, is that the rules and aim of the instance are all written out pretty fucking clearly and people on a platform dominated by longform text donāt really have an excuse for not being able to comprehend it. Like seriously, I had been using Lemmy for two days when I checked out BlĆ„haj, and I feel like I understood then already because itās not hard and English is my native language.
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think theyāre either fucking stupid, or theyāre probably these āfree speechā people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
As far as Iām concerned, moderators and admins doing exactly what is clearly fucking written in the description and rules is not power abuse.
I was banned as a queer person for saying that the genderless pronoun āthey/themā does not undermine someoneās gender and is just using English as intended.
Theyāre out to fucking brunch while weāre about to be genocided im america. Itās disgusting having this level of trolling run a queer space. There needs to be an alternative queer space where free speech is tolerated.
And yeah, Iām mad as hell about it and not backing down. These petulant children who run queer spaces these days put us all at risk when they protect trolling neopronouns and non human identities and kick actual queers out. For āgatekeepingā. Fuck blahaj.
I was banned as a queer person for saying that the genderless pronoun āthey/themā does not undermine someoneās gender and is just using English as intended.
get your facts straight you were banned for misunderstanding a conversation SO BADLY you verbally abused another user that you actually agreed with
https://lemmy.cafe/comment/9831688
and thatās the most charitable interperetation i can give you
Making up shit in that thread at the time wasnāt enough for you, you feel the need to cite your own bullshit as well?
if i remove the shit i āmade upā (i inferred there was a contextual misunderstanding using my best effort) the evidence is even worse for inv3r5ion here
the shit i āmade upā is the difference between [misunderstanding ~> verbal abuse] to just regular old [verbal abuse for no reason]
Yeah, donāt care. Staring down a genocide in America, the pronoun police can go fuck themselves and live in their little fantasy world where dragons are people and queers who donāt play the power tripping pronoun police game are not.
Also donāt you have a life? Youāre literally in every fucking drama commenting about shit that has nothing to do with you.
Maybe if I identify as an attack helicopter the blahaj mods will get the fucking point. Unlikely.
Someone was banned yesterday who didnāt even participate in the instance.
That person seems to be an alt wanted to rehash the whole 196 debacle
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think theyāre either fucking stupid, or theyāre probably these āfree speechā people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
I was accused of being a transphobe on a comm that wasnāt even in Blahaj. I defended myself. For that, I was banned. Another poster, a trans user, made a comment. For that, they were dogpiled by Blahaj defenders, called a fascist and a transphobe, and then banned. Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
Havenāt you figured out by now thatās the strawman argument of any queer person who wants to feel oppression and be offended?
Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
I donāt think theyāre saying you canāt discuss it, or theyāre going to ban or defederate you for trying to talk about it, or anything like that. Theyāre just saying that, now that the issue has been discussed a bunch of times in this community with nothing getting accomplished other than a big productive-conclusion-free food fight, theyād like to (or they are proposing to) prohibit future repetitions of the exact same food fight. I think this is one of the rare times when āyou can still talk about it, you just canāt do it here anymoreā has a good amount of validity.
And like I say, I think the users are much more the issue here than the moderation. I think āhow do we manage to get along on the fediverseā may be a better way to approach it than ādonāt you agree that the mods of blahaj are terrible.ā
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
Thatās sort of what Iām saying. A lot of people on lemmy do want to have that right, and itās not super-important (apparently) within the consensus culture to say theyāre not allowed to. The boundaries of whatās acceptable behavior are often in very weird places, to me.
I donāt think theyāre saying you canāt discuss it, or theyāre going to ban or defederate you for trying to talk about it, or anything like that.
Proposal from OP, one of the mods (who, in fairness to them, is very hard put on by all this pointless fucking drama that they get to get hit with without even being involved)
that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
One of the most upvoted replies:
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
Theyāre just saying that, now that the issue has been discussed a bunch of times in this community with nothing getting accomplished other than a big productive-conclusion-free food fight, theyād like to (or they are proposing to) prohibit future repetitions of the exact same food fight.
The reason why it is production-free is because Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens. If the position is āUsers are sabotaging discussions they donāt want to happen, so we should just not have those discussionsā, then all youāve done is reward toxic behavior.
(who, in fairness to them, is very hard put on by all this pointless fucking drama that they get to get hit with without even being involved)
Yeah thatās part of my POV lol.
we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
Yeah, deleting past posts is silly I think. I donāt agree with that part.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
Yeah, thatās a bunch of bullshit. The only reason I didnāt get in an argument with that person is (1) life is short (2) like I was saying, there are clearly a bunch of good-faith people who are sort of twisted up with certain words and definitions, such that theyāll interpret anyone trying to disagree with that person as transphobia. Thatās the whole point of them being so forceful about defining anyone disagreeing with them in a very particular way. It lays the groundwork for anyone whoās an āallyā to misinterpret any disagreement.
I think the solution to that has to come in some other form than just having a big sprawling slapfight with them. The chance of them seeing reason about it seems near 0, and I think the sum total impact of the slapfight on other people who are observing it will just be to drive them a little further into their echo-chamber.
The reason why it is production-free is because Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens. If the position is āUsers are sabotaging discussions they donāt want to happen, so we should just not have those discussionsā, then all youāve done is reward toxic behavior.
Correct. Iām not saying itās not a problem. Iām saying that having big frequent slapfights about it will not solve the problem (and yes, partly specifically because at this point thereās a whole crew of users whoāve I guess been amped-up and trained to come in and vigorously inflame the slapfight any time one happens.) The best I can come up with is:
- Having a more serious conversation about what type of culture we want to establish here, without coming out of the gate and announcing, effectively, that anyone whoās a supporter of one particular instance is ābad.ā
- Changing the tradition of moderation so that thereās not an expectation of someone standing over the comments needing to delete anything that is ābadā before someone sees it, and has a total meltdown and canāt get out of bed for the rest of the day.
Neither of those are simple things to do. Iām just saying that that type of conversation seems more likely to lead to a good solution to the badness that youāre seeing, than is just vocally hassling the blahaj admins and users every time this same issue comes up.
Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens
Banned users like yourself also flood the thread every time. I donāt see how thatās any different.
Banned users like yourself also flood the thread every time. I donāt see how thatās any different.
What, all three of us? Clearly weāre mass downvoting Blahaj defenders and mass-upvoting our Banned Comradesā¢. Hell, I was only added to that banned list the other day.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
I think @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone would very much agree with this decision as well.
Itās ābellyachingā over dissent from other queers
Ada is in favor of banning dissent
not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it
Literally the comment you wrote immediately before this one involved you deriding bad faith arguments.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
āItās not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.ā
āItās not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.ā
āIām just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I canāt address Draconicās actual pointsā
āIām just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I canāt address Draconicās actual pointsā
The issue brought up by these threads is whether moderator action was justified or not; whereas you are saying the very topic is verboten and makes this place ātoxicā and āunusableā as you harass marginalized folk who commit the crime of disagreeing with you. The point youāre making is in favor of a topic ban on YPTB. Hence āand even discussing the possibility should be banned.ā Iām sorry that you donāt understand what you yourself are advocating for.
You got your answer long ago. You Deserved It, They Deserved it. You and them are indeed gatekeeping other peopleās identities and accusing them of being evil for identifying that way. Also for the record calling people out for gatekeeping and hostility is not āharassing minoritiesā people donāt get a free pass because theyāre trans sweetie, if theyāre gatekeeping assholes they get called out. Whether they scream bigotry afterwards or not is their choice but when they chose to falsely scream bigotry it says more about them than the person calling them out, and ironically puts them in that bad situation of being harmful since crying wolf about transphobia ends up being more harmful than helpful.
You got your answer long ago. You Deserved It, They Deserved it.
Yes, I know you think they deserved to be harassed by you and your pals, but generally in this comm the question is about moderator action.
You and them are indeed gatekeeping other peopleās identities and accusing them of being evil for identifying that way.
Fucking what.
Also for the record calling people out for gatekeeping and hostility is not āharassing minoritiesā people donāt get a free pass because theyāre trans sweetie, if theyāre gatekeeping assholes they get called out. Whether they scream bigotry afterwards or not is their choice but when they chose to falsely scream bigotry it says more about them than the person calling them out, and ironically puts them in that bad situation of being harmful since crying wolf about transphobia ends up being more harmful than helpful.
God, thatās some painful fucking irony, to say that with no self-awareness. Bravo.
Youāre being obtuse and I hope when things cool down youāre able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally. I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think youāre either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit youāre throwing. I have respect for the involvement you have in sustaining and contributing platform and the effort you clearly put into it, and I have seen you say things I really agreed with, but this is too much for me. This is not how you encourage left unity and safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible. I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
Youāre being obtuse and I hope when things cool down youāre able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally.
A trans user was just harassed off the Fediverse by these people, man. Is that harm invisible? Iām bitching about people doing that. Thatās harmful?
I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think youāre either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit youāre throwing.
My banās not the issue, here. When it was locked the other day, I was content to let that be it. The ban was a minor thing; annoying and shitty, but ultimately not meaning much considering that, as mentioned in the OP, I didnāt even use Blahaj anymore.
If you think my ban was warranted, thatās fine. But āWe shouldnāt discuss Blahaj anymoreā, as in the comment I was replying to, is not.
I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
Sure. You tolerate Nazis, theyāll take over and wonāt tolerate you.
Where are the Nazis, here?
Because it looks to me an awful lot like infinite purity tests inflicted even on users outside of the Blahaj instance, combined with sustained harassment; neither of which encourage left unity or safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible.
Where are the Nazis, here?
Luckily I donāt see many here (Lemmy), and if I do I am prepared to confront them in whatever way is required. Please point me in their direction if you know of any. I hope youāre not calling the people who are upset by this situation Nazis, because I havenāt seen any behavior that would warrant that and it would be very alarming and disappointing if that was happening here in a digital space I have come to feel safer in than most others, and would warrant an evaluation of what I am doing here, and I hope that I havenāt been spending my time reaching out and talking to and just associating with people who hold those beliefs.
A trans user was just harassed off the Fediverse by these people
I saw some of the comments that person was making. If they have to go somewhere else to learn how to respect spaces specifically curated by and for trans people thatās fine with me, I didnāt get the feeling they (or for that matter, you) were willing or able to do so at this point, at least in this specific case in the way that was asked.
And please donāt throw in my face again their (or for that matter, your own) marginalized status, it feels to me like itās being used as some kind of gotcha or get out of jail free card, and that is disrespectful as much as most anything that has happened in this thread.
I am hoping that by adding my perspective others might feel supported or safer here, and others yet will hopefully see that horizontal harm is a thing that we have to be aware of and identify and do the work to minimize, internally and externally (referring to both the harm and the work).
Iām bitching about people doing that.
I am not talking directly to anyone but you, and here, you are talking to me, please keep that in mind. Itās fine to complain and always good to speak out against harm coming unwarranted or unfairly to others, but Iām talking to you about your behavior.
Please feel free to reach out for further 1:1 discussion, or not if you do not want to. Itās about time we end the the perpetuation of harm in online and physical spaces and in the systems that we live under. Please also feel free to reach out for support with other efforts towards that goal or other similar ones.
Luckily I donāt see many here (Lemmy), and if I do I am prepared to confront them in whatever way is required.
In this comparison, where are the Nazis, here?
Where is the threat which, if tolerated, will oppress everyone else?
Please, enlighten me.
And please donāt throw in my face again their (or for that matter, your own) marginalized status, it feels to me like itās being used as some kind of gotcha or get out of jail free card, and that is disrespectful as much as most anything that has happened in this thread.
Considering that this is all to the drumbeat of āWe MUST protect marginalized people!ā, itās kind of fucking relevant.
I am not talking directly to anyone but you, and here, you are talking to me, please keep that in mind. Itās fine to complain and always good to speak out against harm coming unwarranted or unfairly to others, but Iām talking to you about your behavior.
My behavior being complaining something you donāt feel should be complained about, because you feel silence and complicity serves the LGBT community on Lemmy more than airing out the dirty laundry?
Where is the threat which, if tolerated, will oppress everyone else?
The current US admin and other actual Nazis.
where are the Nazis, here?
I told you I donāt see any, here in this thread, and rarely if ever on Lemmy as a whole would I describe the behavior of others as āNaziā or as you put it āWhere is the threat which, if tolerated, will oppress everyone else?ā, which is apparently what you think Nazi means?
Please, enlighten me.
Please enlighten me as to where I said there were any here. As I recall that was you, still waiting for that link.
My behavior being complaining something you donāt feel should be complained about
I did not and would not say that.
because you feel silence and complicity serves the LGBT community on Lemmy more than airing out the dirty laundry?
Yeah, thatās clearly consistent with my behavior and what I say here and elsewhere š fuck off troll
You seem like the kinda guy who says calling Nazis Nazis devalues the word Nazi.
ā¦ because I summarized someone elseās position accurately?
This shouldnāt even be a debate or question. This hateful bullshit against Blahaj just needs to stop and mods need to put their foot down and say enough is enough. Like if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly is okay or permitted I donāt think that !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com should even be on our instance anymore, and our admins should just remove it.
I hope it doesnāt come to that. I hope this community can put an end to this bullshit and stop endorsing queerphobic usersā complaints.
Theyāre not queer friendly because they donāt tolerate serious dissent from queers. Theyāre a safe space for people who live in a fucking fantasy world and not reality.
Being queer-friendly doesnāt mean theyāre immune to criticism. The issues people have with that instance have little to do with it being queer-friendly, and more to do with heavy-handed mod practices, and I think itās incredibly disingenuous to suggest that thatās the reason why people are upset.
Like if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly
Nobody is arguing against blahaj for being queer friendly. People are arguing against some of their members for being unfriendly to people, including queer people, among them LittleRatInALittleHat. Thatās the only reason people are caring about this.
The type of mentality āyouāre not allowed to criticize me, because I am X, and so unless you agree with me youāre being anti-Xā is tempting but it is wrong. You might think dragon is a gender, or you might not, it is fine, but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender is not and has never been ātransphobiaā or in any way anti-queer.
You might think dragon is a gender, or you might not, it is fine, but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender ā¦
Well, Iām gonna chime in again, because itās a nice jumping off point.
That argument, that anyone is actually saying dragon is a gender, is simply misrepresenting all of the subject.
Regardless of oneās view on xenopronouns in specific, or neopronouns one general, the claim hasnāt been that dragon is a gender.
The rule, and the argument behind it, is about pronouns. And it isnāt really about the pronouns themselves, as much as it is about who gets to decide when someone is deserving of being respected as an individual.
Weāre not biking being asked to share a belief that a person is a dragon, or fucks dragons, or that humans can be part dragon.
What weāre being asked to do is to respect pronouns or just not talk to someone. Thatās it. Thatās what itās about.
The rule simply lays out what will happen if people donāt do one of those two things.
You donāt have to agree with the word being used as a pronoun meaning anything other than that it replaces traditional pronouns and makes them happy. Does it matter if they think theyāre a dragon, or a tiger? No. It doesnāt matter. If the cognitive dissonance of using a word in an unconventional way is so high that you simply canāt do it, thatās okay. You have multiple options at that point.
One, you can ignore the request, and accept the consequences as they come. Fair or not, those consequences are known.
Two, you can use them anyway, and roll your eyes while you do it. Nobody will know youāre rolling your eyes.
Three, you can use them anyway, and complain about it, which may also have consequences, depending on how you complain.
Four, you can block the individual and never interact with them again, thus preventing cognitive dissonance entirely.
Five, you can choose to just not interact with them at all.
Six, you choose to not interact, but complain about it elsewhere, with possible consequences (as these posts have shown).
Thereās even other options, but theyāre absurdist stuff like juggling oranges while singing āIām a little teapotā. So, you know, only entertaining to me.
Now, thatās separate from anything else, Iām only talking about the idea that one has to share a belief to be able to use someoneās pronouns. Like, my pronouns are he/him, they/them, and Iāll accept any gender neutral neopronouns as well. But Iāll accept she/her in a pinch, though I may correct those if itās relevant. Itās why I never list my pronouns, Iām cool with almost anything, up to and including āthat assholeā. Thatās not even a joke, Iām fine being referred to that way as a replacement for a pronoun, or in general.
You donāt have to agree with my belief that Iām not obligated to behave in the way a pronoun implies to use any of those. You donāt have to agree with my belief that by accepting almost any pronoun that I improve myself by challenging my own concepts of gender in order to use he/him, or any of the rest.
So, why would you have to believe in anything at all to use any pronoun? You arenāt expected to log off and tell your roommate or whatever, ājeez, this cat I was talking to was a real weirdo, heās just nutsā and you arenāt expected to log off and tell the same person āI was talking to this cat from blahaj and drag sure did annoy meā you can use any pronoun you want when you arenāt in the presence of the person requesting an individual pronoun, or any neopronouns, or a xenopronoun.
You donāt need to believe anything except that the person, the human being with their own life and needs and pains, is made a little happier by the use of it. Thatās it. Thatās all you have to believe.
Regardless of oneās view on xenopronouns in specific, or neopronouns one general, the claim hasnāt been that dragon is a gender.
[heavy sigh]
Dragās gender is dragon rider
Iām speaking in the general, with dragon as the example used because drag is largely the focus of contention.
The next paragraph, āThe rule, and the argument behind it, is about pronouns. And it isnāt really about the pronouns themselves, as much as it is about who gets to decide when someone is deserving of being respected as an individual.ā covers that. I was addressing the rule, and blahaj, not drag.
It hasnāt been blahaj policy that Iāve seen that dragon is a gender, only that you have to treat peopleās pronouns and genders with respect.
Itās one of those where we donāt have to agree, we just have to be nice.
Or have the admins specifically addressed the issue as a declarative, and I missed it? I do miss things ;)
It hasnāt been blahaj policy that Iāve seen that dragon is a gender, only that you have to treat peopleās pronouns and genders with respect.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8b47330e-fe59-466e-aef5-b529ed0b05a5.jpeg
I could go further back to the whole kerfluffle this stems from, where there are more examples, but honestly, I donāt feel like digging that shit up.
Ehhh, what that screenshot shows is admins deciding that you didnāt treat pronouns with respect.
Obviously, you disagree with their assessment. I do too, really, though I have seen their argument about it somewhere to and down the various threads.
That is a different thing.
I definitely get why you donāt think itās different, but, looking at it from this side of the screen, thatās not a statement of policy, itās a reaction to their interpretation of what you said.
Against my better judgement, I went into Blahaj back around the time of The Event.
Gender was always meant to help identify where in the spectrum of sex one is. Whether that be male, female, both, neither, slightly female, etc. Yāall are free to say your gender is goth, or as one user on Lemmy is becoming infamous for, Dragon; but youāll likely not be taken seriously, and ultimately youāll be setting back both progression for oppressed minorities as well as already existing accomplishments. PS: op should say what neopronouns are for those who may not know.
Removed: Gatekeeping
If gender means anything then some things are not gender. Thatās not āgatekeeping.ā Itās a tautology. A word with no meaning is meaningless.
Removed: Gatekeeping
Just as I donāt acknowledge ādragonfuckerā as a gender I donāt acknowledge āgodā as a gender type. Thereās a person around here who insists that theyāre a god and that theyāre pronouns need to be capitalized. No one is a god. And no one gets to go around demanding that theyāre a god and that they should be acknowledged as one. I mostly linger here on blah as a habit really. If I eventually get banned so be it. I have my line in the sand for what will make me leave but until that happens Iāll keep lingering like a fart.
Removed, no note
Trans women are women. Nobody is a dragon. Dragons arenāt real.
Removed: Gatekeeping
No, I mean Iām no longer going to be on Blahaj, and those are the communities Iāll miss. Hence ābutā¦ well, Blahaj isnāt for me, since I donāt acknowledge ādragonfuckerā as a gender.ā
Removed: Gatekeeping (that oneās literally me)
A lot of people say a lot of things, who cares? I donāt think itās an unfair line to draw at all. We draw it at whatās real and whatās not. Gender as a spectrum is real. We know this. We also know that the person posting comments on Lemmy isnāt a fucking dragon because dragons arenāt real. Line drawn.
Removed: Gatekeeping
Neopronouns are fine, but not all neopronouns are part of gender identity. Not all identity expressions are gender related. The entire spectrum of gender has a biological basis, and anything which doesnāt have a biological basis is an expression of identity, which is also valid, but not always related to gender. Like, no one can get a medical cocktail to transform into a dragon or cat. Please donāt confuse gender identity with other types of identity expressions.
Removed: Transmed stuff
All of that points pretty firmly to disagreement with dragon as a gender as gatekeeping, not a matter of respecting pronouns.
Ehhh, what that screenshot shows is admins deciding that you didnāt treat pronouns with respect.
Obviously, you disagree with their assessment. I do too, really, though I have seen their argument about it somewhere to and down the various threads.
That is a different thing.
I definitely get why you donāt think itās different, but, looking at it from this side of the screen, thatās not a statement of policy, itās a reaction to their interpretation of what you said.
Legitimately, I donāt see how that can be reasonably interpreted to be about pronouns at all. My objection was to dragon as a gender. I was banned for āgatekeepingā. Redirecting that to a pronoun dispute requires a reading that I literally cannot see, not simply one I disagree with.
Well put
āThey canāt be power tripping mods because they are queer!ā
No, that is stupid.
This shouldnāt even be a debate or question.
Yes, that does seem to be the consistent position in Blahaj.
Brother in Christ, imagine you had a sub where you talk about basketball and people constantly came in, not fans of basketball just saying āman, basketball? I donāt get itā but they are just using that to argue how basketball shouldnāt exist if you dare engage with that.
Youād ban those posts. Because you want your sub to be about basketball for basketball fans. Not because you want to argue with non fans about the validity of the existence of basketball.
Hope that answer was straight and masculine enough for ya.
Hope that answer was straight and masculine enough for ya.
Oh fuck off. They banned this female gender nonconforming queer for not being down with their support for people who make a mockery of us while my country is trying to genocide us.
Theyāre a bunch of petulant children living in a fantasy world and anyone who pops their fantasy bubble gets banned. Whatever. There needs to be a queer space for people who donāt get their panties in a twist over being mIsGeNdErEd like itās the worst thing that ever happened to them in life. Those children need to fucking grow up.
Brother in Christ, imagine you had a sub where you talk about basketball and people constantly came in, not fans of basketball just saying āman, basketball? I donāt get itā but they are just using that to argue how basketball shouldnāt exist if you dare engage with that.
Youād ban those posts. Because you want your sub to be about basketball for basketball fans. Not because you want to argue with non fans about the validity of the existence of basketball.
Cool, now, how about looking around outside of that sub for people who say āBasketball? I donāt get itā to hand out bans and accuse of being Basketball-phobes? Or, in this case, an actual Basketball fan who dared question a refereeās decision? Unfortunately, the holsum basketball community decided that made them a Sports Hater and an opponent of public schooling, and RIGHTEOUSLY drove them out of town!
Hope that answer was straight and masculine enough for ya.
I donāt like sports and Iām not particularly traditionally masculine, but thanks for the stereotyping.
I donāt like sports and Iām not particularly traditionally masculine, but thanks for the stereotyping.
Itās part of the definition of āteams.ā They need to assign attributes of the enemy team to you, just to make sure everyone understands that theyāre on the correct team and need to be supported uncritically.
Itās part of the demonstration of the power relationship. Theyāre allowed to make snide comments about your sexuality and talk down to you. God help you if you try to do it in the other direction (which is of course as it should be - Iām just calling out the toxic behavior for what it is, not saying it should at all be okay in the other direction.) Theyāre flexing their privilege within this context.
Idk man. Pick one, or both. Like I say, once youāve engaged yourself as officially āthe enemyā according to established battle lines, people are going to feel like theyāre being a good ally if they show up to do battle with you accordingly.
