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cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/40688586
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Because god forbid North America have affordable EVs.
The bigger issue is the bottom of the barrel prices making domestic competition impossible.
Sounds like a good reason to nationalize the car industry and not worry about making a profit.
We Canadians are in a weird place - socialism isn’t a dirty word up here (except as imported from American culture)… but we’re still deep into neoliberalism with both the LPC and CPC being strongly neoliberal parties… the only national party arguably opposed to neoliberalism is the NDP.
Nationalize who? The only domestic companies are GM, Ford, and Tesla. This isn’t about protecting those three companies, it’s about protecting all of them.
Yea and that’s more than half of the cars driven in the United States.
More like 34%. Tesla is 4%, Ford 13% and GM 16.9% in the US
Everybody is forgetting Chrysler/Dodge for some reason.
“The national breakdown as determined by the data is 55.55 percent for domestic makes and 44.45 percent for foreign makes.”
this map shows that there’s a lot of variance in ownership by state tho.Chrysler/Dodge/RAM/Jeep are owned by a company based in the Netherlands.
Then subsidize ev and electrification, genius
We already do subsidize them with federal and state credits. It’s not like every other brand new car, whether ICE or EV hasn’t seen price increases climb year over year. I’m not sure why people suddenly think everyone should be able to buy brand new cars at will. This has never represented reality.
Then why are we complaining about china subsidizing their EV production and undercutting the market?
Oh, right, we’re concerned with putting our auto manufacturers out of business, while also filling the market demand for new EVs.
Better to provide subsidies for EV’s and tariff China’s production, that way our auto manufacturers benefit from the subsidies without having to increase supply or lower their prices!
The US has a certain level of basic vehicle replacement, and the replacement demand is mostly in EV’s. Or if you’re worried about reducing personal car use, maybe buy a cheap electric bike or personal transportation vehicle from china instead!
Were complaining because unlike US subsidies that any company can qualify for, Chinese subsidies only apply to Chinese vehicles and are solely there to reduce competition and reduce options.
Oh, right, we’re concerned with putting our auto manufacturers out of business, while also filling the market demand for new EVs.
We only have 3 domestic companies that manufacture vehicles in the US, GM, Ford, and Tesla, while these tariffs protect the entire market including all the foreign manufactures that sell vehicles here like Hyundai, VW, BMW, Toyota, and Stellantis.
Why exactly are you complaining if, as you say, the current demand is for EVs and the replacement vehicle demand is for EVs? If this is true then that means people are buying EVs even though China isn’t selling any here. Seems like there’s no issue here.
Or if you’re worried about reducing personal car use, maybe buy a cheap electric bike or personal transportation vehicle from china instead!
That certainly is an option that is much more environmentally friendly that buying a car built in China. Why exactly are you trying to use this as a crudgel here if your goal is to reduce pollution? That makes zero sense.
Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep
They’re owned by a company from the Netherlands.
Sounds like a good way to end up making Yugos.
Yugos were great cars for the time and for what Yugoslavia needed and could build.
You and I have very different memories of Yugos.
Domestic competitors aren’t producing affordable vehicles. They are producing oversize, overweight, overcomplicated, overpriced crap.
They aren’t competitive primarily because they are focused on a low-volume, high-margin luxury market, and avoiding the high-volume, low-margin utilitarian market. It is their abandonment of that market that provided China with the opportunity to corner it.
Lmao no. That is not the bigger issue compared to literally continuing to poison the planet with fossil fuels.
That’s North American governments’ stated reason for imposing the tariffs, but that could also be addressed by matching industry subsidies. But I think government understands that the North American auto-makers are intentionally sabotaging the EV market and subsidies likely wouldn’t produce a vastly different result.
If the Chinese government wants to subsidize my next car, fucking let them.
I would love it but I don’t think the economy could handle the 100,000s of jobs that would be lost. The big 3 can’t compete and China charges a similar tariff on our vehicle exports. Only theirs isn’t a single fee. They charge a tariff, plus additional taxes and fees, the price can double by purchase depending on the vehicle. China can always start making them here and get around it.
If they nationalized the auto industry, why would jobs be lost?
They don’t nationalize anything. Not healthcare, energy, higher education. Lots of things that would make sense to and would benefit us all. Taking over the auto industry feels impossible. Besides I’d rather the government go all out on rail which has more benefits for a greater number of people.
We do have affordable EVs. Go look at the used market or a new Leaf. PHEVs are plentiful too. This is about preventing China from putting everyone out of business because the Chinese government has deeper pockets than any of the global auto manufacturers that would be affected by this.
Europe seems to be way ahead… Why can’t US actually make affordable cars that actually work and have some modern features? Meanwhile all EU brands have actual entry model.
The EU is also imposing tariffs on Chinese EVs. What European cars are you referring to specifically that aren’t available in the US?
Maybe Peugeot? Or Renault? Idk if they have EVs or affordable EVs tho.
I would not buy a used Leaf. The batteries on those are short on life, especially on models that don’t have an active thermal management system.
China is prioritizing ev production and subsidizing it. If the US wanted to protect their industry they could electrify their infrastructure and subsidize their EV market instead of pushing tariffs on Chinese goods.
I swear to God, Americans are so propagandized they’d chop off their own foot if it had a “made in china” sticker on it.
Americans will point at China subsidizing EV production as unfair while giving a $7500 tax credit per American EV sold for a decade or so now.
Those credits applied to any EV sold in the US previously and with the new extension, apply to any EV built in North America regardless of whether the manufacturer is domestic or foreign owned. What are you even talking about?
China’s subsidies only apply to Chinese owned companies. They’re doing exactly what you’re attempting to accuse the US of doing, yet you seemingly have no problem with that. How odd.
The US had to make the change to only vehicles built in the US because up until recently, it’s mostly only been the US and allied nations making the vast majority of EVs that could be sold in the US. Tesla has been sucking at the teat of the government through various subsidies, including the tax credit on purchases, carbon credits, cheap loans, and other programs.
I don’t have a problem with the US subsidizing the EV industry, it’s something that should absolutely be done. I take issue with people claiming it’s only a problem because China has been doing it too. The fight against climate change should be a global one, we shouldn’t be sabotaging it just for the sake of keeping local industry fat and happy when they’ve been dragging their feet this whole time.
Note the timing of these two events:
Apr 8, 2024 - Tesla Is Reportedly Canceling Plans to Build a Sub-$30K Compact SUV
May 22, 2024 - US says tariff increases on Chinese EVs, batteries and chips to start Aug. 1
Clearly Tesla knew the US was going to jack up tariffs on China and thought it safe to cancel the sub-$30k vehicle they had planned since the anti-competitive tariff kept his profits safe.
Tesla has been sucking at the teat of the government through various subsidies, including the tax credit on purchases, carbon credits, cheap loans, and other programs.
The $7500 credit is industry wide and available to any company that manufactures here, carbon credits are available to any company as well, and cheap loans were also available to any company because the interest rates were at historically low levels until the Fed finally raised them up in the past couple of years from the recession-level rates they’d been at since the 2008 recession.
China, on the other hand, is solely subsidizing their national companies at unsustainable levels and doing so to undercut prices in every foreign market in order to put competitors out of business. This is also aided by the fact that they have extremely lax environmental protection laws and don’t shy away from using slave labor domestically. Once built, these cars would then be shipped halfway across the planet on some of the most heavily polluting methods available, container ships. What exactly is environmentally friendly about this? People just want cheap crap regardless of the outcome which is why companies like Walmart have been allowed to expand so large to become the largest employer in the world at the expense of millions of small local businesses that actually pay their employees well. This shit isn’t good for anybody except those that run the show like the Waltons, and in this case, the Chinese government.
The environment will always come second to the interests of organized capital I suppose.
Somehow I doubt the Chinese mining and manufacturing is environmentally friendly.
Transitioning to EV’s is still good for the environment in the long run. It’s not like getting gas and coal is environmentally friendly. China didn’t cause the Enron scandals, BP oil spill, the pipeline shenanigans, etc.
Nor is building cars in China and shipping them across an ocean and half a continent.
Show me a lithium mine that is. Less oil is consumed when a consumer switches to EVs
What’s environmentally friendly about buying a new car?
That’s disingenuous. These are not tariffs on all cars.
That doesn’t change the point. You want a new car that was built on the other side of the planet while claiming that it’s for environmentally friendly purposes? Why not buy a used EV that’s already built and located in the US? Apart from keeping your current car, that’s the most environmentally beneficial move.
Japanese and Korean EVs are not subject to these kinds of tariffs. The environmental argument does not hold.
Mind you: I’m on the fuck cars all the way camp. I am all for walkable dense cities with efficient mass and active transit. Canada should be making a Switzerland of trains out of the Quebec-Windsor corridor and we should be laughing Doug-Ford-“war on the car”-conservative types out of office everywhere.
But in this case, these tariffs are simply not about any kind of environmental concern. This is trade war power politics and Canada following the US into protecting an outdated set of industries (oil, gas, ICE cars) instead of decarbonizing and doing what needs to be done to face the climate crisis.
Japanese and South Korean governments aren’t massively subsidizing their vehicles in order to undercut everyone else in a foreign market which is why they aren’t subject to the same tariffs as China.
What evidence is there to make the claim that this is all about protecting the oil industry, and if that is the case, why isn’t every other EV on the market being targeted as well? Why is China the only country on the planet that can sell cars for this low of a price? Why do fleet MPG regulations continue to rise if the whole point is to sell more gasoline? This argument falls flat when you actually scrutinize it.
Boom, there, you just dropped the environmental argument, and started talking about trade practices and undercutting competition.
Even if my argument about protecting the traditional automotive technology stack is wrong (and I will not litigate that here) I sure am right that these tariffs are nothing about protecting the environment.
I never once said the tariffs were about protecting the environment as that doesn’t make any sense. I was countering your argument that “people need these cheap, brand new cars in order to protect the environment” by explaining why cars built under lax environmental regulations and then shipped halfway across the planet aren’t good for the environment to begin with.
Is this stopping people from buying a new car? Or would they just buy a car from somewhere else?
It’s people wanting to dump their current car to upgrade to something new and cheap that are complaining here. Apparently, buying used cars like people have been doing for the last century isn’t good enough because it isn’t shiny and new like the latest iPhone or Galaxy and it doesn’t matter if this new car is built in a country with little to no environmental regulations and then shipped halfway across the planet because it’s cheap!
I’m always impressed how capitalists love markets until other people get good at it
China wants to subsidize the transition to EVs in N America. N. America would rather tax their own citizens and risk inflation to protect the profits of capitalists.
And don’t fucking dare tell me this is about jobs. Because if we were on better terms with China, the capitalists would move the factory there.
China wants to subsidize the transition to EVs in N America.
No they don’t, they want to dominate the next generation of the global automotive industry and their plan involves killing all of the competition in both North America and Europe. It is literally impossible for western auto manufacture to compete because of the pay, worker safety, and environmental regulations that they have to comply with.
If China gets its way every place in North America and Europe that used to have auto manufacturing will look like Detroit.
And don’t fucking dare tell me this is about jobs. Because if we were on better terms with China, the capitalists would move the factory there.
You are attempting to use an argument that is objectively incorrect based on empirical evidence. Auto manufacturers could have moved production decades ago when relations were friendly but they mostly didn’t. The vehicles they built in China were for the Chinese market. The vehicles they built in Europe were for the European market, and the vehicles they built in North America were for the North American market.
The US could subsidize their own ev production if they really cared about their automotive industry.
Consumers want EVs but us auto manufacturers (and us govt) aren’t interested in making them cheaply
Where is that money coming from? Oil subsidies? Exploration writes? Bail outs?
I imagine it comes from the same place as all the other the US spends on oil subsidies and environmental programs and defense and tax cuts and Medicare and medicade and and and
The only time this question is asked is when it’s a popular policy that has no other reason to object to.
If China gets its way every place in North America and Europe that used to have auto manufacturing will look like Detroit.
How did Detroit end up looking like Detroit, was that China too? A big portion of auto manufacturing for American vehicles is already outsourced to places like Mexico anyway.
Mexico and Canada are still in North America.
Well, China can move the manufacturing here. Ez.
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No it isn’t or domestic EVs would be slapped with extra fees and taxes too.
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The free market in a nutshell.
5$ on the US meddling again with other countries’ policies to protect their capitalist interests…
The little dog following in the footsteps of the big dog. How cute.
Big dog is apparently not the biggest dog if this is necessary.
This does not seem like a good idea to be honest
Even at 100 percent tarrif, I wonder if they will still be cheaper than ours.
Most likely. A we must have lane assist, spyware, and the ability to lock you out if you don’t pay on time (just wait for it)
So helpful…
What is the build quality on these Chinese EVs like?
The Chinese ICE brands like great wall are just terrible.
moot point iirc, considering the economic strategy in China is that the gov pays the tariffs.
Tariffs are paid by the importers, normally. The final cost to the consumer is then raised by an equivalent amount to offset the tariffs and make a profit.
I’m not sure why anyone else would pay tariffs. Either way, the cost goes up and the government rakes in some money.
How is that moot? For that to work it would mean that for every Chinese auto sale the Chinese government not only subsidizes manufacturing but also has to give another 100% of the sale cost to the Canadian government.
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