The American media loves saying that, but does it really have a right to exist? Does an apartheid colonizing regime have the right to exist in someone else’s land?
No.
Absolutely not. The Zionists are colonizers and all land must be returned immediately to the Palestinians
It really doesn’t. Neither does Amerika for that matter; but the settlers would never accept that as an answer.
So what’s your solution to this issue?
Decolonization and mandatory re-education of settler-descent persons is really the only sane answer. I could be saying a half-dozen more overtly ghoulish things; but the first step of least harm is a ceding of power and privilege from the colonizers to the colonized, and education as to the fuckery that this country-- and as a result, Israel-- perpetuated to come into existence, and why what they did is an aberration.
Who is included in the colonized and colonist categories in this sense? All “white” people? All white passing people no matter background? Recent (last 50 years) migrants of all races?
What would the differentiation be, and what is the line in the sand? This doesn’t seem to be nearly as cut and dry as “Isreali vs Palestinian”.
The differentiation is “can we trace your geneaology up to a slave owner”. There’d need to be a party apparatus for this sort of records-checking; but I imagine in this day and age, there’s likely a technological solution for this that I’m not immediately landing on. Beyond that, I’m not above the idea of re-educating anyone who’s ever flagged themselves “Caucasian” on a federal census; but the priorities are ‘do you have slave-owner in your blood’.
That does seem like a good criteria, but that is an extremely small and limited amount of people. Slave owners were by far concentrated in the South, and only the ultra-wealthy could afford to own slaves to begin with. It was only a 1-2 percent of people owning 95%+ of all slaves. As most free people in the South, white or black, were themselves near destitute and extremely poor.
Plus records of that would be difficult to work with, yes a direct relative would be an easy find, but we would go after someone for their great great great great great uncle twice removed owning slaves?
Also the Caucasian label is itself extremely tenuous, as you would catch the decent majority of slavs, turks, some arabs, Romani, and a whole hell of a lot of bizarre and “non-white” groups by going after the Caucasian label.
Plus then you run into the problem of a decent chunk of people being mixed, meaning no single label would work well for them, or you could have a family where one partner could have had a slave owning ancestor, while their partner had a ancestor who was a slave, and one of their children is extremely dark, while one of their siblings could be much lighter, and then another that’s white as snow. There would be an absurd amount of unique scenarios you would have to grapple with, this is just one.
Is it such a sin to want to see those who self-identify a certain way educated on the baggage they’ve associated themselves with? You raise fair points on the concept of mixed families; but beyond that, while self-identification is fine and all, I see a use case for the education.
But its not really “self-identification”, its not really a personal choice is it? You can’t just self-identify as another ethnicity, race, or background, and most people don’t give theirs a second thought.
Education should just be done overall. I just don’t see the point in otherizing and targeting certain groups on factors such as race, sexuality, ethnicity, or background, barring other overt reasons. I’m definitely not defending racist white chuds and they’re the first ones that could use reeducation, but it just feels like belief and views should be a primary concern. I’ve met plenty of gusanos, extremely out of touch extremely wealthy minorities, and people with racist families who grew beyond that. It just feels the main separator is class and education more then anything.
Again, going back to it, dividing a clean cut colonizer and colonized just seems to be near impossible in the United States. It feels like other factors should be taken into account first.
That does seem like a good criteria, but that is an extremely small and limited amount of people. Slave owners were by far concentrated in the South, and only the ultra-wealthy could afford to own slaves to begin with. It was only a 1-2 percent of people owning 95%+ of all slaves. As most free people in the South, white or black, were themselves near destitute and extremely poor.
people rented slaves, and for the purposes of this discussion, that should be at least partial credit for “owning”
Sure, but how in the world would you ever prove that? I doubt less then 1 percent of the receipts from those transactions survived.
ceding of power and privilege from the colonizers to the colonized
How do you envision this?
Decolonial Marxism as layed out by Walter Rodney
Guess I’ll get back to you after at least skimming that
Give them a bit of germanny as reparations for the holocaust and move them there.
And would that not count as settler colonialism?
Most of em were originall from there yidish is a germanic language after all. And it would be more justified since we can all agree germany did the holocaust. And the jews need their own state because to protect themselves from that. So if the germans broke it they should fix it. Way should the palestinians pay for the duck?
This solution may have been sensible in 1945, for reasons you have described. But now? How many people in Israel even speak Yiddish?
In the abstract sense in that current “Israeli” borders are maintained when it becomes a Palestinian state? Yes. It should not be reduced or divvied up among its neighbors.
As it currently stands as a geopolitical entity that we consider Israel? No. What is considered currently as Israel should be a Palestinian state.
Maybe not the Golan heights
Sure, but that’s not really Israeli borders. No one recognizes it as theirs. It is still “Syrian” territory.
That makes sense!
Israel has the right to exist
…in the dustbin of history
以色列是人类在20世纪犯下的最大的错误，但是我们已经失去了妥善解决这个问题的机会 Israel is the biggest mistake made by mankind in the 20th century, but we have lost the opportunity to properly solve this mistake.
Hope that clears it up for everyone.
The point is… It doesn’t matter now…most of the islamic world except Iran has forgotten their brethren and most of big powers are doing lip service for palestine sympathy. I mean we can bark how much we can… It doesn’t matter to Israel itself. Israel has absorbed most of palestine state and in few years they will absorb more and will erase the historical memory of any Palestinian state. Most Palestinians will flee to Jordon or Lebanon or will become a 2nd class citizen. The hard truth is how much we say occasionally that we are fighting for Palestine the state got finished when Egypt did it’s accords with US and most of Islamic world along with USSR failed to intervene when Israel broke the UN partition plan. The one thing we can try is to change the internal politics of Israel to become a secular country instead of being this apartheid entity but that too requires many adjustments in the world political movement. Right wing jewish lobby is strong in the US and in Europe and they tow the genocidal apartheid line of Israel. It’s sad to see a state sponsored genocide and silence of the world media but sadly it was all over when USSR collapsed. It will take hundreds of years to undo the harm done.
Arguing that there’s not much to be done is not that useful. There’s always something to be done. The South African apartheid lasted for decades, but it was eventually over too.
Bro, you are forgetting something in the equation. USSR was there and they intervened in every part of the globe with good faith. China’s policy is non interventionist and Russia doesn’t care truth to be told. South Africa didn’t have nukes… Israel has it.
I don’t know if it would take 100s of years like that. If socialist countries took the region and held power then, without a doubt, we would need to deport settler colonialists back to their home counties immediately of course and begin working on giving the land back
By that logic does America deserve to exist?
No
No
No state has a right to exist, frankly, but Israel is extra not having the right to exist
Shoulda just busted a nug off Austria.
Europe and west in general has made it very clear it will absolutely not tolerate Jews on the subcontinent. Trying to carve up a little Ashkenaz in Austria would just see another slaughter. In fact that is one of the reasons I suspect the Israel project was supported back then - just ship them off all to somewhere out of sight and out of mind.
and “back then” predates the holocaust
I mean, yeah? You remember those plans to ship Jews from Europe to Madagascar? Britain expelling Jews during the middle ages? Fuckin “Settlement Line” laws in Russian Empire?
do nation-states have rights? are rights even a coherent thing?
