The 14th Amendment to the Constitution bans anyone who āengaged in insurrection or rebellion againstā the U.S. from holding office.
A Florida lawyer is suing Donald Trump in an attempt to disqualify his current run for president. Lawrence A. Caplanās Thursday lawsuit claims that the ex-presidentās involvement in the Jan. 6 Capitol riot would make him ineligible to run again, thanks to the Constitutionās 14th Amendmentāa Civil War-era addition aimed at preventing those who āengaged in insurrection or rebellion againstā the U.S. from holding office. āNow given that the facts seem to be crystal clear that Trump was involved to some extent in the insurrection that took place on January 6th, the sole remaining question is whether American jurists who swear an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution upon their entry to the bench, will choose to follow the letter of the Constitution in this case,ā the lawsuit says, also citing Trumpās alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia. Legal experts say itās an uphill battle to argue in court, since the amendment has hardly been exercised in modern history. āRealistically, itās not a Hail Mary, but itās just tossing the ball up and hoping it lands in the right place,ā Charles Zelden, a professor of history and legal studies at Nova Southeastern University, told the South Florida Sun Sentinel.
archive link to South Florida Sun Sentinel article: https://archive.ph/1BntD
Anyone who says that the election was rigged, and insists on it after being proven false over and over again, wellā¦ if that doesnāt prove malice, then I donāt know what will.
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The election was the most secure in our countryās history, that is a fact, but Trump planted seeds of election interference in 2016, when he won, so there was no denying what his strategy would be in 2020 (and he started on it early in 2020). There were definitely people that voted fraudulently, but it seems the majority of them, that I have seen reported on, were Republicans (voting for dead family members,voting twice, etc).
There were definitely people that voted fraudulently, but it seems the majority of them, that I have seen reported on, were Republicans (voting for dead family members,voting twice, etc).
Trump actually told people in North Carolina to vote twice.
What does your first thought about the āmost secure electionā even mean, and how do you prove it?
Not iBaz, but itās the fact that every state that trumps legal team tried to sue had to double, triple, or further check the ballots has made it the āmost secure election everā. Basically the recounts that happened in Florida with Gore v Bush happend multiple times when trump attempted to dispute the election.
Werenāt most cases of election fraud in 2020ās election committed by Republicans?
Our governorās son tried to vote for him even though he was 17. He was turned away and then came back later that day and tried to vote againā¦
Itās always projection
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Anecdotal data is wholly irrelevant when you have laws upholding the results and should have no bearing on convincing you of one or another thing.
Yes, we know that every election has some fraud. A lot of it is unintentional and a lot of it has been perpetrated by republican voters.
There were fewer than 475 cases of voter fraud found in the 2020 election. https://fortune.com/2021/12/14/trump-voter-fraud-investigation-biden-battleground-states-only-475-potential-voter-fraud-cases/
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/21/politics/fact-check-republicans-voter-fraud-kirk-hartle/index.html
The ultra-conservative think tank The Heritage Foundation has recorded just 1.438 proven instances of voter fraud going back to the 1990s.
https://www.heritage.org/voterfraudThere has been an attack on our country by a sitting president to destabilize the peopleās trust in the principle element of democracy. It has worked extremely effectively as nearly everyone will now question how valid an election really is - the kernel of doubt has been sown. Yet there was zero Z.E.R.O. reason to question the results of the 2020 election.
Trump and his allies had claimed there was voter fraud because the polls prior to the election indicated he was in the lead while the results of the election contradicted the polls. There was also the previously known and reported and anticipated timing of events where mail in ballots were counted in bulk at odd times. Everyone knew the votes would be counted in chunks and that one candidate would quickly pull ahead of the other. We even knew that a lot of republicans werenāt going to vote because it was already anticipated (for no reason) that the election would be rigged. As entirely fictional reports of voter fraud made their way through the zeitgeist, they grabbed onto these stories and presented them as fact with zero evidence to back them up (looking at you pillow guy). The cases were thrown out of court because the lawyers had absolutely no evidence to present to the judges.
Anecdotal stories are irrelevant when the sitting president of the United States is known to have fucked this country over. Heās an evil narcissist and anyone who believes him to be anything else is a fool participating in his intentional dismantling of our democracy for his personal gain and pleasure.
You shouldnāt be āthinkingā there wasnāt enough fraud to sway the election. You should know this to be 100% factually true just as you know it to be 100% factually true that the moon is a sphere. Whatās on or inside the moon is certainly up for debate ;-)
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I havenāt heard about that but I would say so, yes. Can you share these stories?
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These things donāt really seem to be equivalent. The idea in the 2020 election is that there were illegal votes cast and votes illegally purged and that allowed Biden to win. The idea in the 2016 election is more on misinformation on part of Russia and other sources. One is aledging illegal votes while the other is aledging misinformation. Those are pretty different things. And your first link is just about a few Democrats who are concerned about the security of voting machines and want to strengthen said security.
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Yeah people werenāt voting for Biden they were voting against trump. Biden is lame. Iām a democratic lol. I wish we both had better choices.
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He could just argue that heās such an idiot he thought it was true despite the evidence.
ā¦except for statements about Pence being too honest which kind of show he knows he was trying to seize power illegally.
To reach that kind of level of Idiocy would be unthinkable, knowing that you have the power of a U.S. president.
It would have been before. Now, Iām not entirely sure.
My point is that itās not idiocy. To be idiocy, it has to be extreme idiocy, and this is isnāt it.
This guy is not surrounded by noobs. Iām sure he asked the right people whether the elections were legitimate, and he didnāt like the answer. Or he was just following a soviet-era book of rules handed over to him by who knows who. In either case, itās not idiocy. Itās malice.
To be fair, itās more selfishness than malice.
Does the reason change the crime?
Yes. Mens rea
Malice isnāt what needs to be proven. Iāll get voted down for saying this but itās far from proven that trump āengaged in insurrectionā.
He just did everything he could to encourage it and then watched on TV for over an hour giddy that it was happening, refusing to make a statement to call them off, when everyone he knew was begging him to. Yep totally innocent.
Stop it. Iām not defending Trump.
How do you think the legal system works? The prosecutor just says ācāmon your honor he totally did itā and the judge and jury just say āyep, totallyā?
I think the legal system works exactly that way for poor/black people but for white people you buy your way out of jail.
Probably because thatās been demonstrated a seemingly infinite number of times
And yeah what you wrote was a textbook defense, no only in the legal sense but in an everyday sense too.
What about rebellion?
The term you are looking for is mens rea and from what we already know from the January 6th committee, Jack Smith has Trump dead to rights in that respect.
He also almost certainly has additional evidence that the committee didnāt get and that we donāt know about yet.
Itās not looking good for Trump which is exactly why heās desperate to delay the trial until after the election in hopes that he wins and can make it all go away.
Iām surprised I even have to say this as I thought it was common knowledge regardless of oneās political persuasion.
Also, I didnāt downvote your comment.
In many other countries, insurrection gets you a nice brick wall and a blindfold. In America, you get to run for President (again).
Except the trial for the insurrection is just barely starting, not to mention all the other indictments. Yes, he wasnāt immediately locked up and should have been. Yes, heās being treated differently because heās rich, but itās not like nothing is happening.
For real. Iām really jealous that the courts in Brazil have already banned Bolsanaro from running for office for the next 10 years and Pakistanās parliament ousted Khan for being ungenerous to the Ukraine conflict and then later the police arrested him for bribery. Those are supposedly developing countries but they are doing a better job of controlling their tyrannical despots than we are. Fortunately, like I keep saying, Trump has too much work cut out for him to effectively campaign with so many charges. Heās been in the lead, but I donāt know if he can stay that way.
Those are supposedly developing countries but they are doing a better job of controlling their tyrannical despots than we are.
Thatāsā¦ Really interesting tbh.
Youāre equating being a developed nation with the best thing ever, and expecting that if youāre the most developed nation you are also the best at treating social issues, and are therefore a bit confused when you see how other less developed countries can treat these issues better.
But when we get right down to it, development has no real reason to also mean ājustā or ālawfulā, right? I mean - ādevelopedā means having a good economy, right? And when googling about it, the Human Development Index(HDI) comes up as well. But if we break it down, having money doesnāt mean youāre a better person. We can all think of countries with money but with a bad track record in human rights, like Saudi Arabia. And regarding the HDI, the US is 20th in that, right between South Korea (who are constantly faced with a nuclear threat along the border) and Israel (who are currently involved in stealing another countriesā land and constantly persecuting that countryās people). So what does developed mean in this context? Because it sure doesnāt mean these countries should be able to sleep at night because they have no problems.
But skipping all that, whatās weird to me is that this mentality of āweāve got a lot of money therefore we have a great country and society and we only make good decisionsā is so ingrained in you, that it actually surprises you when your country is surpassed by other countries in some aspects.
And itās nothing to do with you, sorry if I made it seem like Iām attacking you or something, because Iām really not. For lack of a better way to describe this, to someone from the outside it looks like youāre a victim of a cult who is slowly starting to recognize that not everything the cult leader has been saying is actually true. I guess what Iām saying is - the American/capitalist propaganda machine does such a good job of pushing the ābest country in the worldā narrative, that itās really interesting to see the ramifications it has on peopleās way of thinking about the US.
or a one-way trip from a window on the 10th storey of a building all the way down to the ground.
Not all countries are barbaric. Some just offer a long term stay in federal hospitality.
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Only if you canāt buy your way out.
Itās crazy that anyone would think he can and should be allowed to run for President again. The 14th Amendment is quite clear. And the man incited a violent insurrection to install himself as a dictator during what was a purely symbolic procedure. Trump lost, Biden won. Counting the electoral votes on 1/6 was a formality. There was no actual way for him to remain in office so he betrayed the nation by attempting to destroy democracy as we know it in this country. The only place he belongs in 2024 is ADX Florence.
The question is how to enforce the 14th amendment. This suit looks like a decent attempt at it, that doesnāt require Congress to act. (Congress has way too many Republicans right now, who will not enforce the 14th amendment against one of their own.)
The problem is that he did everything he could to use language to make it arguable that he was saying things that incite
Legal experts say itās an uphill battle to argue in court, since the amendment has hardly been exercised in modern history.
i find this very strange. itās like theyāre saying no one really knows what the amendment means because it hasnāt been used in a while. iām not a lawyer, so my opinion doesnāt really mean much on this. i but i donāt see how itās that vague (although it is a little vague). i also donāt see why the legal strength of an amendment should depend so much on how often itās been used.
iām not saying theyāre wrong, i just donāt understand why itās like that.
Itās not obvious what it means to āengage in insurrectionā without case law defining what that means. What exactly does āinsurrectionā mean? What types of actions are required for this law to apply?
Itās much more of a gamble.
7 people were convicted already of seditious conspiracy, so either of the conspiracy charges connecting the former president with directing their actions would be pretty strong evidence.
Maybe. Thatās what the courts will need to decide. And without prior precedent supporting your argument itās not as strong as perhaps you think.
agreed - I think it needs a conviction to occur before anyone can argue this.
Except the conviction wonāt be for insurrection, but for some other related offense so heāll get away with it on this technicality.
The thing is, itās pretty clear to basically everyone else. Weāre supposee to have confidence in the people who interpret these things for us, but thatās pretty clearly gone too. Iām pretty frightened about where weāre headed because at some point people will get fed up that no one is getting real consequences and start handing them out themselves.
Well, itās clear to everyone who isnāt a Trumper, but you need to remember that the law doesnāt always follow āitās clear to everyone.ā Due to various reasons, that law can hinge on technicalities and tests. So while we might agree that Trump engaged in insurrection, proving that he engaged in insurrection in court would be more difficult. Not impossible, mind you, but more difficult. And depending on the judge and evidence, Trump could be found, via a technicality, to have not engaged in insurrection as far as the law goes.
I donāt disagree. I think the real problem us that weāre supposed to trust the impartiality of the people making those technical legal determinations. Itās become obvious thatās a total fiction.
itās pretty clear to basically everyone else
Is it? Are you sure?
Itās explained in great detail in the federalist papers.
āLittle more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equippedā
The thing that isnāt clear to everyone all at once is which people are getting away with heinous things with zero consequences. What is clear is that a certain level of society has no consequences. Eventually one side or the other will get fed up and things will get really bad. Whether theyāre going after the actual problems is another thing entirely, and the odds are probably better that theyāll be going after the wrong people.
Either way, I see the lack of consequences as the ultimate fuse in this powder keg. One of the main functions of government is to systematize and standardize consequences for unacceptable behavior, and we all agree to abide by rules we donāt necessarily agree to so that at least itās somewhat consistently applied. In theory. But if government refuses to even give the appearance of doing that, people will take it into their own hands. Human nature has been the way it is way longer than our oldest institutions.
This is just the way of the law and the justice system. Youāve got to prove it.
thatās a good point and it helps me understand the problem a bit better. as someone outside the legal system though, it still seems like any sufficiently robust definition of insurrection should cover what he did on january 6th. but i guess having precise definitions is important in a legal setting and that problem still remains.
From what Iāve heard, the 14th amendment was written in a vague manner because the people passing it didnāt know what form a future insurrection would take. Would it be a full fledged Civil War Part 2? Would it be an uprising? Would it be a state government refusing to follow federal law and threatening to arrest anyone trying to enforce it?
Say they defined insurrection as ācitizens taking up arms against America,ā then many of the January 6th folks would be guilty, but would Trump? After all, he didnāt technically go down there with a weapon.
The vagueness keeps it open to any form of insurrection, but it also makes it hard to tell what counts as insurrection.
It doesnāt say convicted, it says āengaged inā and I believe it prevented former Confederates from taking office. So it seems like thereās a pretty big precedent backing it up.
And then there are other amendments like the 2nd Amendment with the puzzling and vague āwell-regulated militiaā language that never seems to be a problemā¦
Donāt ignore the fact that it was fought in the courts for decades to get where we are now.
Now we have an amendment that hasnāt been tested in the courts because no president has been enough of a corrupt, fascist, scumbag to require its use. So, itās going to have to go through the courts.
I only hope someone in every state brings a case.
I only hope someone in every state brings a case.
Thatās my hope as well. All it takes is for Trump to be removed from the ballot in one or two swing states to have him lose the election.
(Just to be clear to the studio audience, Iām not in favor of āriggingā the system on a technicality so Republicans lose / Democrats win. This is a matter of keeping a criminal defendant insurrectionist and mis-handler of highly classified information out of perhaps the most powerful position in the world.)
For my part, Iām done trying to be civil with the opposition. They donāt want to play fair, they donāt want democracy to survive, and they want to see the people I care about die.
The Republican party exists today to burn the world down. They have to be destroyed or weāre all lost.
Because half the people actively ignore that bit- including many judges.
Itās hard to see how this guy, or any other individual, has standing to sue over this. To sue someone you have to be able to prove that you personally were harmed in some way. And broad āthis harms the electorate, and Iām part of the electorateā claims usually do not work.
Except when it comes time to strike down debt relief.
Yeah š
If that is the case, that is absolutely broken.
Part of it us the lack of caselawwhich is used fairly heavily for arguments in court
Caplan to receive death threats in 3ā¦.2ā¦.1ā¦ā¦
I mean, felons canāt even vote.
This is what Iāve been saying. Heās a felon! Over 90 felonies! Heās canāt run for election.
He hasnāt actually been convicted of any yetā¦ technically not a felon until heās sentenced, if Iām not mistaken
Felon upon conviction even before sentencing but otherwise correct.
Iām glad we have some educated people left in this world like you. Conservatives love worshiping law breaking facist pedophiles like Trump and backing Corporate conservative corporations that enable behavior like his. The Home Depot actively encouraged child molestation in the stores in Montana between their child trafficking high managers. I saw a store manager crack a bullwhip at one of his victims in Helena, while the HR and District manager laughed.
So now weāll have a supreme court ruling that what Trump did was not an insurrection. Great.
If it gets to the SCOTUS, and thatās a very big if, they can easily make a ruling favorable to Trump without ever touching the question of whether or not he engaged in insurrection. Iām not any kind of expert, but as a long time amateur SCOTUS-watcher I think thatās almost certainly what the conservative majority would do. Youād only see the question of insurrection mentioned in the dissenting opinion.
Iād love to see this asshat removed from any chance of getting into office. The GOP will replace him with someone just as awful as far as policies and fascist tendencies, but hopefully theyāll be less appealing to the general electorate.
Think: DeSADIST. It was funny to watch how people reacted to his performance in that ādebateā. Heās so unpleasant and smarmy, if he were to win the primary, I think heās flame out so hard in the general.
Trump is a cult of personality, once he goes, the next guy can be Trump In All But Name, and the fanbois wonāt care
Very true. There are so many try-hards out there - people like Ronnie, Marge, and Qbert, and now Vivek, etcā¦I doubt that little dās base will fall quite as hard for any of them.
Sounds like someone similar to Trump does not want to run against him.
I think a lot of people would just be happy to see Trump cut out of the race for good. There will be no majority for DeSantis, because the Trump disciples will shun him, cutting down any possible Non-Trump REP candidate.
In that scenario I imagine there would be a large number of maga goons who would still write in Trumps name. I can also see people angrily crossing out Bidens name or otherwise defacing their ballot, spoiling their vote.
This next election is going to be an absolute shit show.
If itās true then it should be fine for non fascists.
Well, let them. It just invalidates their vote. I am more afraid of MAGA brains trying to vote with their guns instead.
defacing their ballot, spoiling their vote.
That probably will not be counted in favour of any candidate.
Yes, it is referred to as vote spoiling.
It is equal to not going to election station in first place.*
*unless there is quorum requirement
Is this the Florida Man redemption arc?
Seems more like a preemptive strike in an attempt to discredit the claim early in a friendly district.
Seems more like a preemptive strike in an attempt to discredit the claim early in a friendly district.
That actually makes sense. Itās plausible that it is strategic preemptive judge shopping. Success would create a protective precedent from the findings of a biased court. My reasoning is simple, if lots of the participants of the riot were charged with insurrection, then it logically follows that the person benefiting the most from the insurrection is likely guilty of it as well. The burden of proof should not be enormous to reach the top tier of that insurrection, because of public statements and suspicious neglect of duty to quietly support the effort. Things like wanting to remove magnetic weapon detectors to invite in armed insurrectionists should be a big clue.
A Florida Man with a functioning brain.
Show meā¦ potato salad!
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Wouldnāt he need to be convicted first before this suit has a chance of winning?
Almost certainly, or else the suit could be dismissed on Double Jeopardy grounds. Even then, he would probably just appeal to the Supreme Court and get them to make up some reason to rule in his favor.
he would probably just appeal to the Supreme Court and get them to make up some reason to rule in his favor.
This would undoubtedly become the pinnacle of the Roberts Court being on the wrong side of history, though maybe theyād find a way to top thatā¦
The 14th Amendment is consider to be āself-executingā and public election officials can disqualify candidates when presented with a plausible argument.
Letās say this works and Trump is bad from holding office.
Would Trump consider paying the baton to Don Jr or Eric Trump? Is he capable of giving them that boost?
Then the bigger question is would the Kool aid drinkers accept the different Messiah?
Hah. No. Heād never let someone else shine.
Don Jr, although lauded by the right, also doesnāt have what Trump has: an unerring ability to devote himself to the most simplistic and repetitive dogma in the face of all evidence and disagreement.
Part of Trumps success is to unwavering believe something, regardless of how misinformed, even when informed. Examples: āI use spray deodorant it didnāt affect the climate that dayā, āI can change the weather report with a sharpieā, āwindmills cause cancerā, āinject bleach to cure covidā, āhealth insurance only costs $20 a month.ā
Itās part of DeSantisā problem too that he couldnāt say something like āblueberry jam makes you a better lover in bed and strawberry jam makes democrats have more abortionsā and mean it.
