In light of the recent election, itās clear that the Democratic Party needs a significant leftward shift to better address the needs and concerns of the American people. The partyās centrist approach is increasingly out of touch, limiting its ability to appeal to a broader base and especially to young voters, who are looking for bold and transformative policies. The fact that young men became a substantial part of the conservative voting bloc should be a wake-up callāitās essential that the Democratic Party broadens its appeal by offering real solutions that resonate with this demographic.
Furthermore, one major missed opportunity was the decision to forgo primaries, which could have brought new energy and ideas to the ticket. Joe Bidenās choice to run for a second term, despite earlier implications of a one-term presidency, may have ultimately contributed to the loss by undermining trust in his promises. Had the party explored alternative candidates in a primary process, the outcome could have been vastly different. It is now imperative for the Working Families Party and the Progressive Caucus to push for a stronger, unapologetically progressive agenda within the Democratic Party. The time for centrist compromises has passed, as evidenced by setbacks dating back to Hillary Clintonās 2016 loss, the persistently low approval ratings for Biden since 2022, and Kamala Harrisās recent campaign, which left many progressives feeling alienated. To regain momentum and genuinely connect with the electorate, a clear departure from moderate politics is essential.
The DNC canāt be reformed. They need to wholesale clean house and morph into something else, or theyāre not even contenders.
The argument could be made that they havenāt been contenders for at least 12 years. The Party heads LIKE this dynamic; it makes them oodles of cash.
This was tried in 1968. It failed, and the Democratic Party instituted superdelegates to prevent it from ever having a chance at being successful again. You canāt vote your way out of capitalism.
It was time back in 2016 with Bernie, yet here we are now.
ITT: folks who still think there will be free and fair elections in the US ever again
Itās cute that they think the Dems in Congress wonāt be systematically exterminated within 4 years. Just adorable.
My sole remaining consolation in life is that theyāll probably get rounded up before me.
Better to lose the good ones first?
Cower in place when they come for you, lib.
Itās time the democrats have a primary where the winner isnāt preordained. Even with Obama, Hillary was āpreordainedā the winner in 2008, only to have everyone be surprised that an electable candidate got nominated. Same thing happened with Bill Clinton in '92, where the āpreordainedā candidate dropped out (ironically due to an affair) and Bill Clinton took his place. Come to think of it, that is how Obama got his senate seat. Someone cheated on 7 of 9 and suddenly Illinois has a black senator.
Anyways, just let us vote.
Sounds goodā¦ First thing to do is make sure everyone votes in every primary and election.
No one GAF what you think unless you vote.
But somehow people think sitting out a vote for the 30th time in a row means the Democrats will finally listen to themā¦
It is time to open your eyes to the reality and stop doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
The democrats arenāt there to serve you. They are there to provide an illusion of choice and to help shift the Overton window to the right.
You will never push them to the left because being on the left is antithetical to their purpose and existence.
If this election hasnāt woken you up, what the fuck will?
What other choice is there? Be realistic.
We are unfortunately a two-party state, a third party has no chance.
Lol, I need to be realistic? Youāve got a freshly elected open and proud fascist as president, and an āoppositionā that did nothing to stop him since they both serve the same people (hint: it isnāt you), and you still look at the two party system as if itās some immovable paragon of humane society (when in reality itās a human made construct designed by those in power to maintain it, and can and should be torn down), and I need to be realistic??? šš¤Æ
Here, feel free to challenge your bias and take your own advice, though I wonāt be holding my breath:
https://itsgoingdown.org/dont-doom-scroll-organize-how-to-get-active-in-the-current-terrain/
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq-full
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-mutual-aid-a-factor-of-evolution
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Lmfao, sure thing. But hey point proven I guess, so thanksā¦ ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
Good luck with those two parties, fascist and fascist liteā¦
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What do you think fascism is, out of curiosity? Iām not an Anarchist, but I do think you are making a mistake in thinking fascism is some hard ideology that necessarily includes limiting access to internet. The reality of fascism is that it is a self-defense mechanism of decaying Capitalism, deployed against rising Leftist movements.
I highly recommend reading at least the first chapter of Blackshirts and Reds, where Dr. Michael Parenti analyzes how, where, why, and when fascism rises, and who it serves.
Yes. The Democrats had their last chance to do the bare minimum, and they fucked it all up.
Itās time we vote for the independent or green party. We had 3 elections with the DNC making terrible decisions.
Get rid of Jill Stein and get someone who isnāt interested in being a foreign asset, then we can talk.
Voting third party will not bring about necessary change. The DNC canāt be moved left, but will absolutely use systemic advantage against leftist parties, like how they kicked PSL off the ballots of several states. We need to organize and pressure the system itself from outside the domains of electoralism.
Thats because people donāt realize there are more than 2 choices
Less a problem of lack of awareness, more systemic pressures against voting third party.
More like lack of influence over big media, citizens donāt have info
Which is a systemic problem, no?
Four years of fascism wonāt be enough to get Dems to vote Green, sadly.
The MSNBC comments that DNC needs to be more pro genocide as path to victory is correct for the DNC. Dems lost because they were less committed to Netanyahu agenda than Trump/GOP. All of the money and oligarchs went to Trump/GOP as a result. Where money and media determines winners, DNC has to play the Zionist supremacist game. Biden/Harris praising Trumpās victory in preserving the CIAās myth of democracy over the rule of law and corruption is DNC supporting Trumpās stronger support for zionist supremacist genocide.
You canāt push DNC left if it blocks their primary zionist supremacist fundraising objectives. DNC can only pander to the left. There are no oligarchs who will not align with zionist supremacism either, because its a fight they lose.
A difference between left and pure centrism is a left fantasy of labour, feminist/queer, minority race supremacy in that order.
UBI is a centrist policy that eliminates poverty without creating an empire/heroes to champion the poor. It makes the rich richer without empowering oligarchy, in that the labour market becomes automatically fair when people have the power to say no, but abundance is encouraged because the rich hiring to provide abundance is needed to make sure the poorās money trickles back up to them.
Nationalizing the most evil lobbyist industries and delegitimizing zionist/neocon political candidates is path to victory, but wonāt come from DNC.
Whether left or center, DNC is not a solution. Support another party and abandon DNC. Must start now, not summer 2028.
The DNC is a zionist fundraising organization. Usually Zionism plays both Republicrat sides, but its time to finish the job on genocide, and DNC will get out of the way. The reason to look at DNC for hope is that elections take massive amounts of money.
Without money, there is still a winning strategy:
Zionism is a hate group, and all political office holders who pledge loyalty to Israel will be diqualified from office, and their citizenship reviewed. Their donors will be punished.
UBI is disempowerment of Empire and empowerment of individuals. Governmentās 3 functions are war, survivability and prosperity. UBI defunds war, guarantees survivability, and booms prosperity without counting on a heroās promises to improve your life.
Nationalizing the evil that lobbies and disinforms people: Oil, weapons, media, is social funding that replaces some tax revenue.
The nexus between zionism and all other oligarchy ensures the absolute maximalism of oligarchy with the US empire. As the US collapses, donāt expect the banksters, oligarchs, Israel or other wars to be the ones that are diminished, but also donāt look at DNC to be any different. Those groups fund the DNC too. The DNC selected President/VP just congratulated our new fascist overlord, and are planning to dismiss all charges against him, including the treason ones, as if they were just political witch hunts all along. DNC will then complain and send you fundraising emails for mid terms. Zionist organizations are not a hope for democracy.
Its already the bad version of wokeā¦
First off, no. White men are still in everything and everyone in Hollywood is still hot, stop being a crybaby because some minorities are in your movies and games now. Theyāre still not the majority at all, and itās nice to see some other representation for a change.
Second, woke doesnāt matter. If they offer actual left economic policies, cultural clashes fall by the wayside. The only reason people fight about dumb cultural stuff like that is that they donāt believe either party will help them materially. And yet thatās basically the only reason Trump won. Everyone I know said they voted for him because of the economy, not once did anyone I hear mention that heāll fix āwokeā, whatever that means.
who gives a fuck about what pedos are doing hollycreeps?
jfc, yāall need get your priorities straight.
People care about being able to afford basics first and foremostā¦
their woke does is nothing besides virtue signaling.
And also they donāt want a woman as president.
This has been the rallying call from progressives for decades, they keep sliding right. At what point do we have to consider that entryism into the Dems just doesnāt work? The party structure is designed to entrench establishment figures that are great at fundraising from wealthy Capitalists.
DNC komissars sold out to the oligarchs long time agoā¦ 2016 and 2020 they cucked out Bernie.
They are not getting votes out of me until Bernie type is on the ticketā¦ nothing else. I can vote 3p for rest of myself it aint like voting maters under current regime where some no name clowns pick your a candidated sanctioned by oligarchsā¦
Correct, your sentiment is a common one. Marxism is regularly vindicated because it remains correct, try as progressives might to avoid its conclusions that revolution is necessary.
You aint got to be a Marxist to see this shitā¦ although his work is foundational for any functioning adult imho
Marx is so good he still makes the ruling class sweat at night, must have really hit the spot šø
It seems they actually based the modern regime architecture on his writings tbh
You donāt have to be a Marxist to notice it, but his writings and the writings of Marxists that succeed him are critical for putting everything into context.
No. Do a Bernie.
An independent canāt win the presidency but independents absolutely can become state senators, state house reps or federal senators.
If youāre a politician who manages to win your local democratic primary run as an independent with no one with the (D) labelā¦ if no one is wearing the label youāll outperform wearing it yourself.
You can affix yourself to a more niche party like Democratic Socialists of America or the Working Families Party but keep that (I).
2016, 2020, 2024ā¦
THEY WILL NEVER DO BERNIE GET A FUCKING HINT
Thatās the regime whore that could have taken voters from Trump but no DNC komissars shut it down EVERY SINGLE TIME
Let me clarify - donāt try and do a Bernie into the Whitehouse - youāre up against an immense amount of moneyā¦ but do try and do a Bernie into other positions.
I will vote any ātrueā Bernie type at any level of elections. At least that guy says things i want to hearā¦ sanctioned regime whore candidates canāt even muster to butter me with āmaternity leaveā, proper social services, universal healthcareā¦ i guess they donāt need my vote lol
Iāll only believe a leftist could win an election for president AFTER a leftist wins an election for governor.
not even sanders who is pretty tame as far as leftism go is sabotaged and not allowed to even compete.
the system itself is broken.
Does FDR count?
If FDR counts then so does Biden
Was Senator good enough or nah?
Why? Are leftists not capable of winning governorships too?
Just seems pretty arbitrary and an easy goalpost to move. If they had a governorship and not a Senator, you could just as easily say āI wonāt believe it until they can win a Senate seat!ā instead lol.
Good thing it literally doesnāt matter what you believe they can do
Governors, like presidents, are part of the executive branch. So I think it is the more appropriate comparison.
The leading contenders for the 2028 Democratic nomination arenāt a mystery. They are mostly governors, for example Newsom, Pritzker, Shapiro, Beshear. There isnāt some unknown leftist walking among us who is going to come out of nowhere to win the primary.
All these Sanders supporters talking about the establishment as the reason he doesnāt win. Yet none of them voted in the primaries this year. None of them wrote him in for president. Sanders wonāt win because instead of going to the polls and actually voting for him, his supporters will post on the Internet about wishing they could go to the polls to vote for him.
none of them voted in the primaries this year
ā¦ dude. The primary between Biden, the magic crystals lady, and some no name executive?? I did vote in it, and I also knew it was a total sham. What primary did Kamala Harris win? Oh right, not a single oneā¦ how can we possibly act surprised that a candidate did not win in a general election when they never even won a primary in their own party?
The Democrat party has not held a valid and legitimate primary since 2008. Super-delegates that are literally pre-pledged to the elitesā chosen candidate is not valid democracy. Holding a primary in stages where specific states go first and sway and influence other states that go later is not valid democracy. Youāre not going to win at democracy if you donāt even do democracy.
š¤”Holding a primary in stages where specific states go first and sway and influence other states that go later is not valid democracy.
The alternative is to hold all primaries at once, which costs candidates a lot more money. It would basically exclude any candidate who did not have significant establishment support from the moment they annouced and/or is not a billionaire.
If you want a non-establishment candidate to have any chance, you must give them the opportunity to prove themselves in a small contest, like Iowa, and allow them time to build up momentum.
Okay, I guess just keep losing then?
Yes, start locally and regionally then go up to nationally. This is the way.
The funnny thing about elections is that politicians do the things people vote for. Literally no one gives a shit about people who donāt vote. Everyone who sat out and couldnāt even be arsed to vote third party just helped move the country to the right. Everyone who sits at home during primaries letās the rest of the country have its way.
Democrats donāt implement the things that you want because you donāt vote and therefore you donāt matter. Republicans donāt implement the things you that want because you donāt vote and therefore you donāt matter.
āWaah, waah, thereās only two parties.ā More than half the country doesnāt vote. Thatās enough to elect a third party candidate. Instead millions of idiots sat at home complaining that they canāt get everything they want today, and moving the needle is too much work.
Politicians do the things people
votedonate for.After that, they say things they think the people want to hear.
And blameing the public over not voting for somone they donāt want to vote for, seems backwards. Politicians arenāt entitled to any votes. They need to earn it.
What horseshit. They didnāt write in any candidate, like there was no one in the whole world they could think of that they want as president.
Do you think thereās one ballot in this whole country that has a single question on it - like there was nothing out there worth voting on other than the presidential race?
Saying thereās nothing to vote for is an excuse to be lazy. If you couldnāt find one single thing on your ballot to vote for in this election, then youāre never going to vote, for any reason. Everyone knows it, and therefore no one cares what nonvoters say. So sit here and do what you do best, blow hard on the Internet. You can post your little commets, that no one will read or care about, because at the end of the day they know no matter what they do or say, you wonāt go to the polls to stop them.
Saying thereās nothing to vote for is an excuse to be lazy.
Who said thereās nothing to vote for?
āAnd blameing the public over not voting for somone they donāt want to vote for, seems backwards.ā
You are implying that there is no one to vote for. There are more than two candidates, and you can write in anyone you want. And there are many questions on the ballot. No one is blaming anyone for not voting for someone they donāt like. Theyāre blaming them for voting for nothing, at all, among many important races and initiatives, with the possibility of writing in anyone, then saying āYou canāt blame me; thereās not something I want to vote forā.
You are implying that there is no one to vote for.
Not at all. You even quoted me saying someone, not anyone.
No one is blaming anyone for not voting for someone they donāt like.
I guess Iām assuming they donāt like either of the possible winners, I didnāt think of the others, because they donāt matter.
āYou canāt blame me; thereās not something I want to vote for.ā
Iāve never seen that. Do you see it frequently? How many times this week?
If you couldnāt find one single thing on your ballot to vote for in this election, then youāre never going to vote, for any reason.
This is why elections famously always have the same amount of turnout.
What bugs me about this election is that turnout of GOP and independent voters surpassed Dem turnout.
This makes me wonder if a bunch of former Dems switched parties between 2020 and now. Which would suggest that voters themselves are swinging rightward.
Consider that heās gained in previously blue strongholds, like in Beverly Hills as per https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-07/trump-victory-by-the-numbers/104573034 and even in Brooklyn as per https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/06/trump-voter-gains-new-york-00188078
To me, this seems to justify the Dems rightward swing - they are following the voters. No wonder Harris campaigned with Liz Cheney at her side.
But, it also makes me feel kinda sick inside. If the country as a whole is swinging rightward, that makes me wonder where I fit in - or even if there is any room at all with someone with my beliefs.
To me, this seems to justify the Dems rightward swing - they are following the voters. No wonder Harris campaigned with Liz Cheney at her side.
What a ridiculous takeaway. They moved right and lost, but somehow this shows that moving right was the correct decision? Thatās nonsense, it shows the exact opposite.
The Cheneys do not represent any substantial constituency. Virtually nobody likes them, right or left. Kamala went chasing after the mythical āmoderate republican swing voter,ā and they told her go fuck yourself the way they always do, and in the meantime she neglected her actual base which meant less enthusiasm and mobilization.
The democrats have tried this shit over and over. The people who like right-wing politics already have a party catering to them that theyāre happy with. How many times does this strategy have to result in abject failure before you start to question it?
Not the first time Iāve heard this bullshit either,. Itās a surprisingly common talking point among centrists, even though itās so blatantly stupid. Oh, the Democrats are going to the right because the left wonāt vote for them? Well, the right wonāt fucking vote for them either, so why are they still moving right? Why is courting the right a reasonable and smart thing to do, while courting the left is dumb and bad? Especially when they keep courting the right and they keep fucking losing?
What a ridiculous takeaway. They moved right and lost, but somehow this shows that moving right was the correct decision? Thatās nonsense, it shows the exact opposite.
Sorry, you are saying that folks joined the GOP and voted for orange voldemort because ā¦ he was to the left of Dems?
Kamala went chasing after the mythical āmoderate republican swing voter,ā
As part of a broader coalition. Not after them solely.
in the meantime she neglected her actual base which meant less enthusiasm and mobilization.
I disagree. She was on places like āCall Me Daddyā and SNL - the outreach was there.
How many times does this strategy have to result in abject failure before you start to question it?
Well, it worked in 2020, but not in 2024. Meanwhile, Clinton did not purse this in 2016 - instead calling the worst of these folks ādeplorablesā - and still lost.
So the answer is - certainly more than just the one time.
Sorry, you are saying that folks joined the GOP and voted for orange voldemort because ā¦ he was to the left of Dems?
Trump got 72 million votes in 2024, compared to 74 million votes in 2020, so Iām not sure where youāre getting this idea that Dem voters moved to Trump. Trump just successfully turned out the same base of supporters that he had before, while Harris didnāt. But even if your claim were true, it would still indicate that moving to the right is ineffective, because in that case it failed to stop them from leaving. Itās just utter nonsense no matter how you try to look at it.
I disagree. She was on places like āCall Me Daddyā and SNL - the outreach was there.
I cannot possibly emphasize enough how much I do not mean āgoing on SNLā when I talk about mobilizing and energizing the base.
Well, it worked in 2020, but not in 2024. Meanwhile, Clinton did not purse this in 2016 - instead calling the worst of these folks ādeplorablesā - and still lost.
So that one comment outweighs the entire rest of the campaign where she moved to the right to try to appeal to moderate republicans?
Hey, you know what, Harris called republicans āweird.ā So I guess we canāt count this either as an example of your ideology being proven decisively wrong for the upteenth time. And the next time that the democrats try this and it blows up in their face yet again, there will be some random comment that means you can exclude that data point too.
so Iām not sure where youāre getting this idea that Dem voters moved to Trump.
This makes me think youāre replying without reading. Iāll make it easy for you though and quote my earlier comment,
Consider that heās gained in previously blue strongholds, like in Beverly Hills as per https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-07/trump-victory-by-the-numbers/104573034 and even in Brooklyn as per https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/06/trump-voter-gains-new-york-00188078
Moving on,
But even if your claim were true, it would still indicate that moving to the right is ineffective, because in that case it failed to stop them from leaving.
This is a good point. Agreed.
Trump got 72 million votes in 2024, compared to 74 million votes in 2020,
Citation needed.
What Iām aware of (e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/07/uncalled-house-senate-races-popular-vote-2024-election/ - https://archive.is/W93jB) says we donāt have the final popular vote counts yet.
Itās just utter nonsense no matter how you try to look at it.
No, nonsense doesnāt make sense. But this does make sense. The issue is - if Iām right and the whole country is moving rightward, then Dems can only survive by also moving to the right.
In other words, one interpretation is that Dems and Harris didnāt go far right enough.
I hope thatās wrong though, since it suggests lefties like myself are an endangered breed.
how much I do not mean
Thatās fair - would be helpful then if you state what you do mean. Or in other words, what you think would be effective in āmobilizing and energizing the base.ā
So that one comment outweighs the entire rest of the campaign where she moved to the right to try to appeal to moderate republicans?
It wouldnāt - if that had happened. But - while it is true Clinton tried to get moderate Republicans on board back in 2016, she really didnāt shift at all for them. Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/while-wooing-republicans-clinton-sticks-progressive-policy-n628501
And the next time that the democrats try this and it blows up in their face yet again, there will be some random comment that means you can exclude that data point too.
Again, itās more than just a random comment.
Hey, you know what, Harris called republicans āweird.ā
Hmmā¦ I donāt recall this actually. Citation needed.
So I guess we canāt count this either as an example of your ideology being proven decisively wrong for the upteenth time.
Well, you canāt count it as that, but for a different reason - youāve failed to prove anything wrong, let alone decisively.
Citation needed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election
The final vote totals are not in yet, true, but Iām going off what information we have now.
No, nonsense doesnāt make sense. But this does make sense. The issue is - if Iām right and the whole country is moving rightward, then Dems can only survive by also moving to the right.
In other words, one interpretation is that Dems and Harris didnāt go far right enough.
I hope thatās wrong though, since it suggests lefties like myself are an endangered breed.
Well, the good news is that you are completely wrong.
Harris lost for two very simple reasons. First, because she attached herself to a status quo that many people were dissatisfied with. Second, because she attempted your shitty strategy of shifting right to win over republicans, when republicans are perfectly satisfied with the party theyāve got.
Youāre operating on lots of false assumptions, like this idea that who people vote for just comes down to whoās closer to them on the political compass or something. Honestly, Harris couldāve run to the right of Trump on every issue and Trump supporters still wouldnāt vote for her. Thatās just how reality is, and your ideology is out of line with it.
Thatās fair - would be helpful then if you state what you do mean. Or in other words, what you think would be effective in āmobilizing and energizing the base.ā
Running a progressive campaign with progressive policy. Not punching left. Not supporting genocide. Not bragging about Dick Cheney being on your side.
Even just calling Republicans weird was actually working but she couldnāt even stick with that because she was too concerned with winning over the mythical moderate republican vote.
Hmmā¦ I donāt recall this actually. Citation needed.
Really?
Yep. So that happened very close to Biden dropping out, hence I think I missed it in all the noise about the change.
Itās good to have source though. In this case it provided additional context - the comments were limited to the top two, unlike Clinton who insulted potential voters. (Actually letās not kid ourselves - these folks almost certainly voted against her in the end.)
The final vote totals are not in yet, true, but Iām going off what information we have now.
Thatās not unreasonable, but Iād argue itās premature. If the results change, that could invalidate the conclusion.
The sources I referenced seem to disagree with you, but after all they may yet be proven to have jumped to conclusions too soon as well.
Well, the good news is that you are completely wrong.
Like I said, itās premature to conclude this.
Iāll grant you this - if the final numbers show that the GOP didnāt get more than 2020, and Harris ended up getting a lot less than Biden did (on the order of tens of millions), then Iāll concede and agree.
Though Iāll through in an additional wrench - Iād want to see what happens with the popular vote in California specifically. To rule out things like Dem voters in Republican or battleground states getting their votes suppressed as being the cause of the GOP win.
But if the numbers say differently - that more people voted this year overall, for example, then Iād argue that supports my original (and deeply disappointing) case. (Iām not sure year if 2020 is the right comparison either due to the effects of the pandemic - that might have been an unrepeatable one off. Iād also want to compare to 2008 or 2012 after adjusting the numbers for population changes.
Honestly, Harris couldāve run to the right of Trump on every issue and Trump supporters still wouldnāt vote for her.
Agreed. I confess that why his core voters like him so much remains a bit of mystery to me - even the most extreme on the right havenāt been able to displace this guy, a new york liberal who basically stole their playbook and used the bits he liked.
But this puzzles me less than a Clinton and Biden supporting Dem turning red this year.
Running a progressive campaign with progressive policy.
Like Clinton did in 2016, as per the NBC source I referenced earlier? We know how that turned out.
Not punching left. Not supporting genocide. Not bragging about Dick Cheney being on your side.
Yup, agreed. I can see Palestine/Gaza indeed being a sticking point. I still will never understand those folks who voted GOP because they didnāt like Biden/Harris on Gaza - which many claimed to do as per https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/14/hamtramck-donald-trump-arab-american-muslim - but I could easily understand them sitting out or voting third party. And with Dick Cheneyās history, that might influence single issue voters negatively who might otherwise be primed to want to believe in the best of intentions from Harris.
Of course, Harris was between a rock and a hard place on this issue - but we donāt need to rehash all of that. From whatās coming out now, itās clear that Harris wasnāt able to strike the necessary balance and win over this important voting bloc - such as https://www.voanews.com/a/in-historic-shift-american-muslim-and-arab-voters-desert-democrats/7854995.html and https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/11/7/dont-dare-blame-arab-and-muslim-americans-for-trumps-victory - and I certainly canāt rule out the possibility that your suggestion here might have been enough to swing things the other way.
Thatās just how reality is, and your ideology is out of line with it.
Youāre operating on lots of false assumptions, like this idea that who people vote for just comes down to whoās closer to them on the political compass or somethingIf thatās false - then how do people choose who to vote for? What else would be the measure that they use?
like this idea that who people vote for just comes down to whoās closer to them on the political compass or something
Well, they also tend to follow endorsements (hence why AOC and Sanders endorsed Harris), and do things like punish the incumbent if the economy feels really bad, etc. Iād agree that closeness isnāt the sole thing.
Even just calling Republicans weird was actually working
Per your citation it was just the two folks who are heading to the White House, not Republicans generally.
but she couldnāt even stick with that because she was too concerned with winning over the mythical moderate republican vote.
Actually, she did - see https://www.npr.org/2024/10/30/nx-s1-5170908/harris-argues-that-trump-poses-a-threat-to-democracy-in-the-final-days-of-the-race & https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/15/harris-slams-trump-in-pennsylvania-as-us-election-race-heats-up
Could be that they were shut out of the primary process, and wouldnāt have chosen Harris.
Oh, right I forgot that the presidential race was the only thing on the ballot in the generals, and that there werenāt primary elections for every position, including president, in multiple parties.
Except of course thatās not true, and they didnāt participate in any of that, and thus no one cares what they say. If they cared, they would have voted for someone else in the primaries. They didnāt so that means one of two things. They assumed Biden would win and were happy about it. Or they assumed he would win and couldnāt be bothered to do anything about it. So if they donāt like it, who cares what they think? Theyāre not going to do anything about it, so why appease them?
Instead, theyāre going to whine on the Internet about how they were āshut outā of something that was completely open to them, and pretend like itās the worldās fault, and can safely be ignored.
Iāve read that comment a few tims now. I genuinely canāt follow what youāre talking about.
Calm down. Come back, and try again.
This would make more sense if they just sat it out and didnāt vote (or say voted third party).
But this doesnāt make sense if they switched parties and voted for orange voldemort. All the reasons not to choose Harris (such as not being strong enough on Gaza) would apply even more strongly to that guyā¦
Thatās exactly what happened. Trumpās turnout was about the same, but Dems turnout was 15 million less than 2020. That shows not that people are going more right ward and voting for Trump, but that Dems turnout was depressed due to apathy or something else.
Oh, interesting. Do you have a source regarding the turnout? What Iāve been reading elsewhere suggests that turnout wasnāt depressed except compared to 2020 - which may have been a fluke due to the pandemic - but the sources I have (such as https://dailyiowan.com/2024/11/06/2024-election-reaches-second-highest-voter-turnout-in-the-past-century/ ) arenāt clear on hard numbers or stats.
A different commenter on this thread (see https://lemmy.world/comment/13325248 ) claims that orange voldemort actually got fewer votes in this election than in 2020. No source was provided and Iām a bit skeptical, but if you both are right (contradicting the sources I have pointed to in my other comments) then it suggests a) that there was no such shift and it was merely a turnout issue and b) that more leftist or progressive policies might do the trick!
Which are much easier problems to solve than to deal with folks actually moving their beliefs and votes to the right.
I think youāre right that turnout in 2020 was kind of an anomaly from being higher than normal. The stats I found, and this is just what I am seeing referenced so Iāll keep trying to find a source, is that Trump had 4 million less than 2020 but Democrats had 15 million less. So a general depression of turnout but way more from the Democratās camp than Trumpās.
But either way, if people are moving right, I think they can also be moved to the left, too. I tend to think that it happens when current times are bad, than they stop wanting to move forward and they look for scapegoats. We just need a more equitable economy that works for everyone, and not just the rich.
Thereās a really good repost at https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/18340229 which shows that actually turnout was higher where it mattered almost across the board, though alas it also doesnāt cite a reference or source for the numbers. (Remember though that even an extra 81 million votes for Harris in California wouldnāt have made a difference in the EC, but split 15 million Dem votes evenly across the seven swing states, and Harris would have won.)
This suggests that there wasnāt much of a depression of turnout - perhaps only in the safe blue states, which wouldnāt have been impactful.
Of course thatās based on an estimate, or guess, on how the total popular vote count will turn out, which is still unknown. Weāll see, I guess.
Youāre right about being able to get voters to switch back to blue. But thatās what puzzles me - why did they switch from blue to red in the first place?
But actually you answered this already - itās the age old āitās the economy, stupid.ā Maybe this was unavoidable then? Biden and his Dem replacement would have always taken the hit on the economy no matter what. The only one eligible to run who might have been able to avoid that stain would have been Sanders.
I am registered unaffiliated because Iām left of our Democratic party, not right of it. I canāt be the only one. So some of those independents are progressive.
So I think being a more-left independent is fine (though Iād personally want to stay registered as a Dem just so I would have a chance at voting for the most left Dem candidate in primaries).
But could any of these folks such as yourself have voted Red on the big day? And if so, why??
I totally understand Harris not being the ideal candidate for such voters, but to vote Red instead? How is that an improvement?
I cannot imagine that. The people I know who voted for Trump are either victims of the right wing media bubble, or worried about very specific individual issues - one about guns, one about gas prices, plus I think low information voters who have short memories, I heard a lady on the radio saying āheās a businessman and I am an entrepreneur, I think he will be more friendly to businessā.
Here, the leftmost are mostly better informed, I think.
Actually Iām starting to move against this view as well. https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/18340229 shows that turnout was even higher than in 2020 (though still waiting on sources for those numbers, which in any case are estimates and not the final count)
Rather than Dems majorly sitting it out or switching sides, it is actually starting to look like all the GOP folks who sat home in 2016 and 2020 finally decided to turn out for orange voldemort. I wonder why thoughā¦ I guess, they finally thought the economy had become bad enough to punish the status quo leaders.
Yeah, I agree. People think of parties as these static things, but parties are made of people, and the people in the parties change all the time. Republicans freed the slaves and gave women the right to vote. Those arenāt the people in the party today.
The Democratic party is going to take on the former GOP people. It wonāt be a huge shift, but it will shift. The people that voted for people like Cheney are going to become Democrats. The people that were in the Democratic party are going to get pushed to the edges. Because no one votes for them. These petulent children complain that the candidates are not perfect, and didnāt āearn itā, and āif theyāre not perfect, then Iām just not going to play the game at allā.
Itās a lot of talk, and zero action with these people: all excuses - money influences politicians, we donāt have a choiceā¦ Two of the questions on my ballot were initiatives, just straight up votes that would directly change how the government is run here - no politicians, no money trail, you just vote on it and the law changes. Itās utter bullshit pretending this is a waste of time, and itās everyone elseās fault. They sound like a bunch of little piss babies crying in their milk.
The relationship between slavery, womenās suffrage, and the Republican party is a little more complicated than that. People fought to end slavery and people fought for womenās suffrage.
And itās a similar story with the civil rights movement, Democrats didnāt give anybody anything. People demonstrated and organized for their rights. Likewise for workersā rights during the Great depression.
Though I agree with your point, parties do change and nothing is static. But itās pressure that changes them. And with left activism basically dead in our country right now, itās election financing that mostly calls the shots.
Yeah, pressure from voters. Not voting isnāt pressure. Donāt vote, dont care. Half the country doesnāt vote. Financing is bad, but you canāt act like itās so bad that 150 million votes couldnāt overcome it. And certainly you canāt act like 150 million absolutely nothing has any chance of overcoming it.
Financing from corporations affects voter turnout. People are tired of the duopoly. Look at Bernieās campaign in the 2016 primaries compared to Kamalaās. It also causes right wing drift in the Democratic Party. Which doesnāt get people excited to vote for them.
And the ballot box is dead for the next two years, possibly much longer. Our only hope is the filibuster and left organizing (strikes, protests, marches, etc.)
Shaming people for not voting on the internet isnāt going to help anyone. And itās not going to slow our descent into fascism.
We need collective action and direct pressure. And courage. Because the authoritarian regime is likely to counter with state terrorism. And blood is likely to spill.
In any sane system without FPTP and with RCV or similar, though, those who got pushed out could easily form a new party. I could easily see one lead by Sanders and AOC.
But under the system weāve currently got, theyāre both pushing voters for Harris instead. Because thereās not really any other choice. Theyāre right, but so are you. Thereās no place left for folks like us - weāll hold our noses and stick with the Dems because theyāre the least bad option, but so many transformative ideas are going to languish.
I was hoping that this was just because of the EC and gerrymandering - that the issue was structural and thus the votes that counted didnāt accurately reflect what the country as a whole wanted. Meaning we could fix this by fixing the structure (e.g. abolishing the EC). New data however, suggests there is a real rightward and rightwing shift in this country, which is really painful to process.
I agree. This is eye opening, not just the support for a felon, but also the huge number of people who do nothing when given multiple opportunities to do something. I donāt want to help people whose idea of action is complaining on the Internet about how they canāt do anything, and sitting at home during primaries and general elections.
