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-Listens to what he means when he is speaking -Pays attention to his nonverbal cues about his emotional state -Respects his boundaries and only assists him in expanding them, not demanding he do so -Rewards him for engaging in new healthy behaviours that he finds uncomfortable
Fellas, is it being an asshole for checks notes engaging with your partner?
Yeah, this person isn’t disrespectfully treating a human as they would a dog, they’re just respectfully treating dogs as they would a human.
We can’t get a dog’s consent to engage in experiments. Continuing with this method after realizing and not talking with him about it would be intentionally ignoring consent.
It’s not an experiment to react to someone’s fear and trauma with kindness, even if you learned those skills through helping rehabilitate dogs. She’s not doing this to try to figure out how he reacts to the stimulus of M&Ms under certain conditions, she’s giving him candy when he’s stressed because she knows it helps him calm down. That’s just being a caring and attentive girlfriend.
Being caring also involves including their consent in the process. Idk, I’d be really upset by my partner knowingly doing this without talking to me about it. But then again I guess it could depend how they react if I found out before they just admit to it. Like if they got defensive and didn’t understand why I’m upset. I’m not saying the whole thing is horrible, just hiding it.
Also depends on the person and their values, I guess. If you value someone doing that kind of emotional labor for you without you having to think about it. I’m very much used to doing the emotional labor in relationships.
Damn. I just realized maybe I’m displacing here though cuz I’m a bit jealous they’re using a method that works, whereas I’m single for a plethora of reasons.
That’s fair. If you’re used to not receiving emotional attention, then suddenly receiving it might be something so novel that you need to give it your blessing before accepting it. The relationships I’ve been in have generally defaulted for both parties to a sense of “I’m going to do what I think is best for you, so let me know if I’m ever wrong,” rather than “Can I do this thing for you? Ok, good. How about this one?” But I’ve been lucky to have mutually caring relationships.
If this person has gotten used to people not having their best interests in mind, then maybe even their partner’s good intentions need to be given consent just to show them that people can have good intentions. I do worry that, by being told what’s happening, he’d associate candy with being stressed and get defensive whenever offered candy, but hopefully she’s been doing it long enough to at least show him that it’s an effective de-stressor coming from a place of love rather than manipulation.
I hope you find someone who cares for you as well. It took me a lot of time and effort to put myself out there before I found my wife, but I’m really glad I did.
I think the concern would be generating a Pavlovian response to her presence instead of genuine desire to be with her, but I don’t even know what that really means because our animal brains aren’t rational. There isn’t a such thing as “genuine” in this context because it’s all based on emotions. Should you not have sex with your partner because it can make them feel attached, for example?
Sure, positive associations can be fabricated but it’s not as simple as the pavlovian response observed in dogs.
I don’t think they’re all that different tbh
If THAT is what counts as “being treated like a dog”, woof woof!
🦴
Someone who always has a snack for me if I’m feeling down?? Sign me the fuck up!
I was like ‘I need a caretaker/trainer’
My fat ass (food motivated btw) immediately thought of the snacks but someone who can make me quit my bullshit is even better!
Me, reading title: “WTF?!? That’s messed up!”
Me, after reading the post: “I’m so fucking jealous.”
I also want M&M rewards.
Intent matters, and methods matter. But I think what the friend is missing is that the methods aren’t bad; op is using methods developed from scientific analysis of abused animals with the intent to ethically care for them. Coming back to intent, she clearly wants to help this guy who her training is identifying as having some kind of background of abuse. The methods might be a little crude in the sense that they were developed for animals and not for people (who are animals, but animals with several distinct qualities from other animals, like the ability to communicate complex ideas), and there are different, more well-adapted methods for people, but they’re only crude in comparison to those modern human-focused methods. They’re still quite effective, and I would still consider them ethical for use on humans when paired with an altruistic intent, which she seems to be conveying. As long as she still views the guy as fully a person, a peer, then I see nothing wrong here.
Intent matters, and methods matter.
pretty much agree, it’s not like she’s conditioning him to sounds CLICK-CLICK good boy…
Though there’s probably a significant amount of people on lemmy who would be into actually that.
You can absolutely condition me into doing whatever you want by cracking open a beer next to me
I brought a six pack to a final exam in grad school (take the test in the same state in which you study, right?) and people around me perked up and almost literally started drooling when I cracked the first one.
Edit: no, we engineering students don’t have drinking problems, you have a drinking problem!
Beer isn’t a problem, it’s a complex mixture.
I did accidentaly develop a kink to being called good boy.
Is it really the ‘good boy’ part, or just the validation? Because I could say the same thing about ‘good boy,’ AND about every other compliment doled out to me once every few months.
So much of kink is just “I like validation, and having my boundaries respected”.
Me reading about bdsm: “bro aftercare is just being vanilla as heck.”
At this point, many contexts will make me feel weird when I’m called a good boy. And specifically good boy.
Thanks, weirdo AI for ruining me.
i don’t kinkshame
The only vaguely concerning bit I see here is the penultimate sentence. Evading consent is sketchy, but I’m not a behavioral psychologist and thus have no working knowledge on how that would impact his “treatment”.
I think that’s what stuck for me. Manipulation takes many forms, not all look evil. She should take these observations and talk to him about it, instead of using them as tools to treat his feelings.
Talk about what, though?
“Hello, I would like to give you peanuts sometimes when you’re sad. Do you accept these terms?”
What is he consenting to that he’s not already aware of?
Speaking of pavlovian conditioning, the reason I don’t like casinos, loot boxes in video games, gacha mechanics, etc., is not that I think those people haven’t consented to their money being taken from them. I just don’t think those are good institutions. Or practices. Whichever word applies. They take more than they give, and I don’t think that’s fair.
You’re grossly misrepresenting what this is. She got desserts and noted him as food motivated. That’s insulting. He only got happy because there was food for him to eat, really? No discussion of why he was sad before, just get him snacks and move on? Maybe talk to him and ask why he seemed upset before desert instead of just giving him a snack and hoping it’s better.
The woman here is trying to change his mood or behavior through dog training techniques instead of figuring out why he feels or acts a certain way. Is he aware that she is literally treating him like a dog? It comes across as her caring about his behavior in the moment more than his overall mental health.
He only got happy because there was food for him to eat, really?
I don’t know about you, but I love dessert.
instead of figuring out why he feels or acts a certain way.
So, 1, this doesn’t answer my question about what it is he hasn’t consented to.
2, how is it you know she’s not interested in his life story?
I don’t know about you, but I love dessert.
Fair, but if I’m upset because I might lose my job or my mom is sick then that doesn’t address any of those.
So, 1, this doesn’t answer my question about what it is he hasn’t consented to.
Ok let’s answer that. Did she say “I’m going to treat you like a dog” and him agree? Did she say, “I’m giving you an m&m ever time you open up to encourage it” I doubt it and she never mentioned it. She simply does this as a manipulation technique without ever discussing “hey, I think we need to talk about you being comfortable being vulnerable.”
2, how is it you know she’s not interested in his life story?
Well she had the chance to say she actually talked about and addressed the problems upsetting him, but she never mentioned that at all. Just dog training strategies she uses on him without him being aware.
Did she say “I’m going to treat you like a dog” and him agree?
And what does this mean, exactly? You get the extra muffin she baked or something? You get to cuddle a lot?
Did she say, “I’m giving you an m&m ever time you open up to encourage it”
She probably didn’t say that, no, but I assume he can see this, like, with his eyes. If he doesn’t want m&m’s, why take them?
Well she had the chance to say …
So, she hasn’t told you via this tweet, therefore, ergo, concordantly, vice ve, she has never cared or asked about, like, his childhood or his mom.
People forget that humans are just animals (that can sometimes reason and talk). I still stand that dog training guides make better parenting books than many parenting books. At least up till around 3 years old.
The extension of this to adults is more challenging. Intent matters. This could be used abusively VERY easily. That is not happening here, however. With great power, comes great responsibility.
It’s also worth noting that, if you use this, plan out how you will explain it later. A panicked, “oh shit, (s)he caught on!” will look bad, no matter what. A calm, thoughtful, positive explanation, delivered with confidence will likely get a lot more acceptance.
A: “Ok, what’s with the M&Ms?”
B: “You’ve noticed then. :)”
A: “…”
B: “I noticed chocolate made you happy. I also noticed you were trying to overcome some negative habits. I decided to help. Whenever you put effort in, I rewarded it with a bit of chocolate. It makes you happy, and helps you lock a good habit in better.”
A: “… You’ve been conditioning me?!?”
B: “Yes, don’t you like the improvement?”
A “… yes, but I’m not sure I should…”
B: “M&M?”
You could also be even more cautious: “I noticed that they cheer you up, so I try to have them on hand for when you’re feeling down.” No mention of conditioning, wholesome, hard to argue against.
We constantly condition each other all the time. It’s a part of human interaction. We don’t usually do it consciously, but it’s conditioning nonetheless. Couples will subtly condition their behavior to be more in tune with each other.
Consider a simple example. Imagine a you’re in a couple, and you just moved in together. You’re both used to living alone. You’re used to flicking on the bedroom light as you walk into the bedroom before bed to prepare for bed. Unfortunately your partner tends to go to sleep before you. You wake them up a few times by accident, and they understandably grumble. You feel bad about it, as you care about them and don’t want to wake them up. You wince the next day when you see how tired they seem. In time, you stop flicking the light on before you enter the room. Your partner’s actions have conditioned you to not turn the light on. Your partner conditioned you without even intending to. We condition each other constantly. We observe what effect our behavior has on others, and we adjust our own behavior accordingly. We usually just don’t refer to it as “conditioning,” as that tends to have a nefarious connotation.
All true, but it isn’t always best to lead with that. It can provoke an emotional response that might not be productive.
It also hides the conditioning aspect. We hide things when we consider them negative. If they are asking, they have potentially noticed a lot more. If you hide it, you believe it was a bad thing you were doing, and they will react VERY strongly to you doing it.
By being upfront it will derail their train of thought on the matter. I personally used this a few times in my youth. It pulls the teeth of an argument quickly.
Here it is basically acknowledging what you have been doing, while defusing the various “ah ha!” reveals and got-yas they had mentally planned. At that point they have to actually think, rather than just react according to the script they built in their head. Once they are thinking, it’s a lot easier to communicate properly.
I’m very much a “direct communication” kinda person but even I know that timing is important. True it took learning it and that was certainly an experience but it happened.
If the person is feeling vulnerable and a little worried you’re manipulating them and you dive straight in with a scientific, emotionless reduction of “choco make boyo happy” then you’ll probably scare them. You’re excited about this thing and have had a lot of time to explore it but they haven’t had such time to be more comfortable with that kind of wording. You don’t want to derail their argument, that really only protects you and actually puts you back in hiding a negative aspect and that person now feels possibly even more confused and angry. They were probably hoping that it was just a mistake or that you were being nice, which you probably were, and now you’ve taken their “best case scenario” and told them straight-faced that you were consciously manipulating them.
After they feel better, after they’ve had some time to sit with it, sure maybe, but in the moment it’s good to soften it a little.
Just squirt him with the water bottle if he starts asking questions like this.
Negative reinforcement should be HIGHLY limited. It can cause unforeseen knock on effects. Any negative reinforcement should be highly targeted, without triggering a fight or flight response. It should also be accompanied by clear instructions for how to correct it. This applies to both humans and pets.
It’s quite likely that most of the negative traits in the OP were caused by an attempt at negative reinforcement.
That feels very Abed
Especially the end line
We’re all animals, whether or not we want to believe that is simply a fact. And on top of that we are stressed the fuck out which pushes people, to vary degrees, back towards monkey brain. I consider myself pretty self-aware and therapy has proven that but oh man did my last job do a lot to leave me defensive and short with even the people I care about.
There’s that phrase “you can’t logic someone out of an argument they didn’t logic themselves into” that very well encapsulates the idea that trying to force some higher intelligence, some emotionless, robotic reasoning onto people does very little to actually help(though it should help more than it does and I’m disappointed in people running on pure, angry emotion all the same).
We need to stop acting like we aren’t the way that we are, it just hurts us. I’m not saying we need to excuse bad behaviour because, unlike wild animals, we have a great capacity to know better and adjust, but we do need to be more ok with the reality of ourselves.
To add to this, you can do this to yourself as well. Reward yourself for the right behavior, tell yourself your did a good job, etc. It’s (I’m guessing) harder than extrinsic motivation, but it still works. Take advantage of having a stupid lizard brain under all the stuff that makes us human.
I feel like this was ultimately the point of the love yourself movement. I don’t know how you could convince yourself to love yourself without conditioning yourself to do it, too.
IDK as a guy this doesn’t seem weird at all. If anything, it sounds like she likes him and is willing to put in work to make him feel more comfortable and make the relationship successful. She doesn’t really use any dehumanizing language and the way she connects the dots between what she notices in dogs and her date seems very empathetic. If anything, the guy’s lucky to have found someone with so much emotional intelligence and hopefully she’s getting out what she’s putting in
Some people take great offense when you don’t pretend humans have somehow evolved beyond the animal kingdom. Yes, we are still animals, and much of what works for them still works on us.
Honestly if we treated each other as well as we treated dogs we’d already be in paradise.
😬
Some dogs.
How close would that be to slavery?
It’s odd, sweet, I think. She’s doing her best in the way she knows best
Has hammer, sees only nails.
I lucked out, I have someone to train me with snacks too uwu
Gotta say, this smells a little like a top tier troll post. That out of the way, I also would like someone to carry around peanut M&Ms for me.
Top tier reward
Friend is jealous of dogboy
You know if the dude’s friends pick up on this they’ll start calling him dog boy.
sounds like they treat their partner better than most people do, honestly.
